conserve

Mon Jul 24 16:37:22 CDT 2006

Dear Hamish, 
     You have a good point. A conserve in my mind is anything that has been created and then functions as something that is used again by others. So in some ways it overlaps with the idea of "meme," a contemporary word used as a take-off from the word "gene,"-- any idea that catches on. I've just been reading a book about how pop culture is full of phrases, jargon, slang, cute terms and idioms that live for months or decades or become established. 
       So, in the spirit of sociometry, perhaps we need to specify our criteria.
           In the context of the previous conversation, a fashion that may be common in one region, say the practice of psychodrama in Australia, perhaps should not be generalized to the whole field of psychodrama. I think that's what I was saying.
       Your point that it may not be necessary to actually have it in writing is of course valid, especially in cultures that have no systems for reading and writing--which refers to many of the human tribes up to, say, 1500, and still a fair number. And of course these cultures had many conserves.

   Now it becomes fair if you specify it to refer to a conserve of a region, of this or that business. The point I'm making is that if we are to generalize to a whole profession, to say that psychodrama as a field has this or that norm as a conserve, it should probably apply to--what?--80% or more of the people in all regions...?  or something like that. 

       The other point that you raise or imply is that it is valuable to ask ourselves what ideas, norms, attitudes, and so forth may or may not have become a little rigidified, held on to instead of being re-chosen spontaneously.

        thanks for raising this issue. Warmly, Adam

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Johanna and Hamish 
  To: list at grouptalkweb.org 
  Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 2:29 AM
  Subject: RE: Ambition

  Hullo Adam and others

  Hmm. I like this notion that what matters is what we create from now going forward with out reference to an authority as a reason for being able too.  

  I agree that for a conserve to exist in the entire psychodrama world it would probably be written somewhere; there must be too much divergence in different communities of psychodrama practice around the world.  Are you also suggesting that a conserve only exists if it is written down?  

  This is not how I hold the notion of conserve; I use it in practice to refer to any belief which is commonly held and lived out thorough action.  For example competitiveness is often a conserve in organisations I work with.  It's probably written about as a good thing in some management text somewhere, but I doubt any of the people who I'm referring too could site a reference for it - there's just a collective idea that it's a good thing and many conscious and unconscious practices which are congruent with this belief.    

  Also I want to speak for separating the "individuality - community" continuum from the "competitiveness - cooperative" continuum.  Individually I'm 'for cooperative' and 'against competitive'.  I also think you can only cooperate to the extent that you are individuated and that communities cooperate. J . also I notice that I  tend to write and speak as if I'm very conserved but actually I'm pretty flexible.  

  I'm glad your going to get 10,000 to 20,000 people in Brisbane involved in psychodrama Peter H HHhhh- I like that because I'm trained in psychodrama I'm trained as a therapist.  I don't often say I'm using psychodramatic methods when I working in the organisational sector though -unless they know me well and it won't scare them. 

  Also I'm interested in your post Peter P, could you send it to me directly also? 

  Warmly

  Hamish

  Hamish Brown

  Director

  Zenergy

  Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world

  119 Mt Eden Rd,

  Auckland

  www.zenergyglobal.com 

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  From: list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org [mailto:list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org] On Behalf Of Adam Blatner
  Sent: Monday, 24 mmmm 2006 12:39
  To: grace at graceworks.co.nz; list at grouptalkweb.org
  Subject: Re: Ambition

  Dear Grace, I can say with great certainty that there is no conserve against competitiveness. There may be a range of socio-economic-political orientations that might be slightly or moderately skewed to left-of-center in some communities and regions, but this doesn't constitute a conserve--in the sense of any written doctrine that I'm aware of. 

         You do bring out a point, though, which is that folks tend to interpret scripture or theory or whatever in such a way as to support their socio-economic political orientation, and that it takes a high degree of devotion to precision, a bit of skepticism, to refuse to appeal to authority--i.e., citing the conserve as being supportive of one's bias.

           I'd be interested to see if anyone disagrees with what I've said about the above. 

          What seems incompatible with psychodrama theory is any reliance on the past, the conserve, what Moreno said because he said it, or any other seeming authority. The spirit of spontaneity in my opinion invites a re-evaluation of the present and how past ideas may fit, not fit, or need minor or major revisions to be useful. 

        Warmly, Adam

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Grace 

    To: list at grouptalkweb.org 

    Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 6:53 PM

    Subject: RE: Ambition

    Kia ora Adam and others

    Hamish's thoughts answer for me to some degree your question:  "a somewhat conserved response to what 'forms' of ambition are 'acceptable' and what do not 'go' with their notion of the 'spirit of psychodrama'." Can you say more about this? It might be important for us to clarify what may seem incompatible with psychodrama's spirit, and what might be wrong understanding".

    Just as Hamish observes in the western/commercial world a bias towards individual (competitiveness) at the expense of the group, I believe there is somewhat of a conserve in the psychodrama world towards 'community' that is often at the expense of the individual.   It is a bias that I believe stems from the majority working in community and therapeutic settings, who would see that 'making money' from the use of the method as slightly (or more so) distasteful, and exclusive of those who cannot afford it.   

    I reckon the 'spirit of psychodrama' is much bigger, inclusive and working towards the balancing of both of these aspects of human endeavour.  I like your suggestion Hamish, of looking below the surface to the intention or essence of the endeavour, and I believe that at the heart of both the above world views is a similar desire to make the world a better place.

    cheers

    Grace

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    From: list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org [mailto:list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org] On Behalf Of Johanna and Hamish
    Sent: Sunday, 23 July 2006 9:21 a.m.
    To: list at grouptalkweb.org
    Subject: RE: Ambition

    Hullo Grace and Peter and others

    I am responding a lot to this thread about ambition.  Grace I like you talking about 'being inclusive of all that exists as human endeavor'.

    Like you I think that Ambition is a facet of spontaneity.  I think it is a natural human thing to want to become who we can become to dream and make our dreams real through our actions and creations.  

    There is a cultural conserve in the western world which encourages competitiveness - becoming better than others.  In my view this conserve often kind of perverts or displaces the natural desire to be who we can be, into aggressiveness and domination of others.  As I work in organisations I often find myself thinking that people leaving university, getting a job and desiring to contribute are faced with a system that encourages ladder climbing and 'being better than'.  People struggling to experience self worth are offered meaning in terms of getting higher faster.  Sometimes I have found that underneath the ruthless corporate climbing exterior is a person wanting a kind of self expression which brings satisfaction, contribution, using ones talents to make the world a better place. 

    I think I am privileged in that I generally get to work with people who have been successful in this corporate sense and then found that their success is empty and unsatisfying.  So they are already looking for a means to use their skills and talents for things which feel good to them.  Very often these things seem to involve contribution to others rather than competition with others.  To me it is a very natural thing to want to make the world a better place.

    Cheers Hamish

    Hamish Brown

    Director

    Zenergy

    Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world

    119 Mt Eden Rd,

    Auckland

    www.zenergyglobal.com 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org [mailto:list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org] On Behalf Of Grace
    Sent: Friday, 21 mmmm 2006 2:50
    To: list at grouptalkweb.org
    Subject: RE: Ambition

    Kia ora Peter,

    I too have thought long and hard on ambition.  Here are some thought from me:

    When I worked fully in the community and education sectors I always considered I had little ambition, and I took this as a given about myself.  Having taken the plunge into creating a lifestyle for myself that centres on promoting psychodrama and Morenian processes in ALL I do, I find that my ambition to make it work is what gets me up and going in the morning!  It is also what sustains me when my flaws and foibles get away on me and I don't manage to create what I am seeking (i.e. I fail).  It also assists greatly assisting me to identify the criteria for making choices, whether it be who I associate with, how I construct my support networks, what work I do etc.  Yay for ambition I say!

    I have found that the tendency for psychodrama to be practiced mainly as a therapeutic and community-based method here in Aotearoa New Zealand (and probably Australia) has had a significant influence on a range of factors influencing in promotion of the method.  This includes, I would suggest with a little trepidation, a somewhat conserved response to what 'forms' of ambition are 'acceptable' and what do not 'go' with their notion of the 'spirit of psychodrama'.   I have observed people from other sectors come into the community and initially become very excited about the potential application of the method for their own work.  However it seems they tend to go again after a relatively short period of time satisfied that they have gained personally but discouraged and sometimes disillusioned that there is any application in a wider context.  

    From my own experience my observation is that ambition is an expression of spontaneity, not sparked by comfort (a little like spontaneity), nor nurtured by isolation (ditto).  I have watched my ambition grow as I get closer to being able to live spontaneously in all aspects of my life.  My understanding of Moreno's method and his notion of sociatry, is that it is 'inclusive' of all that exists as human endeavour, and when I read his work, such as Who shall Survive? and the Words of the Father, I feel encouraged that Moreno saw his method applied widely for the benefit of humankind whatever the context.  I find this very exciting!

    I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing you were asking about, but here you go anyway.

    Cheers

    Grace 

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    From: list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org [mailto:list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org] On Behalf Of Peter Howie
    Sent: Friday, 21 July 2006 11:47 a.m.
    To: list at grouptalkweb.org
    Subject: Ambition

    Hi all,

    I've been thinking recently about what keeps me going at times, what keeps others going and thing of this nature. Watching Frank Lowy in a documentary, a multi-billionaire Aussie with 180 mega-shopping complexes around the world, who funded the turn-around of Australian soccer/football and helped get us to international status, when asked what kept him going he said he was still full of ambition.

    I'm imagining that J L Moreno was also full of ambition, ambition to do many things, one of which was to promote and teach his remarkable method and to try and set up systems to support its ongoing practice, teaching, methodological review and improvement and philosophical development. 

    I'm thinking on this and wondering about my own level of ambition. Psychodramatists with ambition that I know of would be Kate with the Spiral model work, Marcia Karp, Max Clayton - and there would be heaps of others. I am not thinking about abilities or skills as a trainer, educator or practitioner. More about their ambition to relentlessly push forward in creating a world that they would like to live in, surrounded by colleagues who support and challenge them and keeping going despite their own human flaws and foibles.

    Anyway - this rises for me as I contemplate doing things a bit differently around here with how I spend my time promoting psychodrama and Morenian processes. How much do I have. Ho much do those around me support or parallel me. Things like this.

    So how does this idea of ambition sit with some of you?

    Cheers for now

    Peter Howie
    Brisbane, Australia

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