client or trainee
HV Psychodrama
hvpi at hvc.rr.com
Mon Sep 11 19:07:29 CDT 2006
I think Melissa's experience is an example of why the board should make a
ruling about this...no one used to think much about trainers sleeping with
their students...now we are all clear that this is verbatim. There are many
ways of exploiting one's students and her story proves this.
We actually had a woman come to a recent training with a 'friend". They
had studied 'transformational psychodrama' in a 'heart centered' training
program (?). I have no idea what they had studied, neither knew what a
double was or the concept of warm up. In any case, one woman turned out to
be the other's therapist, but now they are friends and co leaders of a
group. This is dangerous, and actually pretty stupid, legally speaking. We
were very diplomatic, but it took a lot of role reversal on out part not to
just go ballistic.
Anyone want to pen a letter to the board? Maybe we could get a petition to
make a clear statement that trainers may not train people who have been
their individual clients.
Rebecca
----- Original Message -----
From: "Melissa Monahan" <melissa_erin_monahan at hotmail.com>
To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: client or trainee
> After further reflection, I suggest the demarcat5on between
> therapist/trainer and client/trainee is this:
> In therapy (good therapy, anyway) there is that unconditional positive
> regard gifted by the therapist. In the trainer/trainee relationship, the
> dynamic sometimes takes on a student/teacher dimension and, thus, the
> trainee may feel the need to perform for the trainer; please them; garner
> approval. Whether this is conscious or not, only the individuals know. In
> my
> case, it was certainly the latter. What complicated the matter further was
> this consistent suggestion by my therapist/trainer that she would
> designate
> me her "assistant" at future workshops/conferences and then I could attend
> for "a reduced fee."
> During our final session, when I articulated these concerns (so what is my
> role---client, trainee, potential employee, etc.?) her response was, "This
> is what we do in the Psychodrama community, and some people can handle
> it."
> Alas, my decision to terminate the relationship has proven healthy,
> enlightening and, in some ways, sad.
> Again, more than anything, I now believe the Psychodramatist in question
> was
> operating from a fragile and often inflated ego space. Her desire for a
> potential "assistant" or "student" seems to have informed and, ultimately,
> taken precedence over what should have been her primary role---that of
> individual therapist.
> After all, that's what I was paying her for.
>
> Thank you for this dialogue,
>
> Melissa Erin Monahan
> New York City
>
>
>>From: "HV Psychodrama" <hvpi at hvc.rr.com>
>>Reply-To: list at grouptalkweb.org
>>To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>>Subject: Re: client or trainee
>>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 17:41:15 -0400
>>
>>This note makes me very sad. Too many times I have had students come to us
>>with tremendous damage done by trainers who mix their role as individual
>>therapist with trainer. I am wondering if we can't get the board to make a
>>statement about the ethics of this.
>>Rebecca Walters
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Melissa Monahan" <melissa_erin_monahan at hotmail.com>
>>To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>>Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 2:35 PM
>>Subject: Re: client or trainee
>>
>>
>> > This dialogue is so important.
>> > As a student of Drama Therapy, as well as a Psychodrama trainee, I can
>> > appreciate the fine and delicate line that MUST be drawn between the
>> > therapist/trainer and client/trainee.
>> > As a creative therapeutic novice, I had chosen to extend my trainer's
>>role
>> > to include that of individual therapist. At that time, she was more
>> > than
>> > happy to expand her professional repertoire and make a monetary deal.
>> > This
>> > maneuver, however, eventually proved disastrous, as the boundaries
>>became
>> > increasingly vague.
>> > For example:
>> >
>> > *Her asking permission to eat salad during a one-on-one session.
>> > *Delegating duties, that included phone calling and drumming up
>> > business
>> > for
>> > her group/workshops.
>> > *Assuming I'd drive her home following a back-to-back individual
>> > session
>> > and
>> > training evening.
>> > *Explicitly suggesting, during one-on-one psychodramatic work that, one
>> > day,
>> > we'd have an office together and she would send me child clients
>>because,
>> > after all, sometimes being a solo practitioner gets "lonely."
>> >
>> > While I acknowledge that reality is subjective, I do believe that some
>>of
>> > the boundary issues stemmed from my trainer/therapist's insecure and
>>egoic
>> > need to be regarded as someone with a "gift" for psychodrama, or "one
>> > of
>> > the
>> > best psychodramatists around" and "a role model of honesty for my
>> > clients."
>> > Conversely, I am a newcomer, and instinctively welcomed any/all
>> > guidance
>> > as
>> > well as professional mentoring.
>> > After emerging from a profound crisis, I realized how informal and
>>skewed
>> > the relationship was; how compromised MY therapeutic process had become
>> > (and
>> > at some pricey hourly rates). While such nuances certainly don't CAUSE
>> > one's
>> > crisis, they're not of much HELP either.
>> > Eventually, I suggested she continue to be my psychodrama trainer, but
>> > divulged my decision to work one-on-one with someone else.
>> > This was, naturally, met with bewildered criticism and, then, an
>>ultimatum
>> > to either work with her in individual therapy or leave her psychodrama
>> > group. While I understand her motivations
>> > were---always---well-intentioned,
>> > that kind of strong-arming hammered the proverbial nail into the
>> > psychodramtic coffin, and I chose to abort the relationship.
>> >>From this experience, I learned so much about the boundaries necessary
>>to
>> > distinguish a client from trainee, and I thank my former
>>therapist/trainer
>> > for that.
>> >
>> >
>> > ~Melissa Erin Monahan
>> > New York City
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: Carole Oliver <caroleolivernj at optonline.net>
>> >>Reply-To: list at grouptalkweb.org
>> >>To: list at grouptalkweb.org
>> >>Subject: Re: client or trainee
>> >>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:41:18 -0700
>> >>
>> >>Peter, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses as clinicians.
>>Working
>> >>on one's boundaries issues are important, however, it is also equally
>> >>important to know your self enough to set strong boundaries with some
>> >>pretty explicit rules, no dual relationships. Kudos to you to be able
>> >>to
>> >>maintain all those dual roles, I know I wouldn't want so therefore
>> >>probably
>> >>would not be good at it----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: Peter Parkinson
>> >> To: list at grouptalkweb.org ; grace at graceworks.co.nz
>> >> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 12:22 PM
>> >> Subject: RE: client or trainee
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I practiced psychodrama for 15 years in a community of 800 people.
>> >> About
>> >>500 of these were utilizing psychodrama for their development. As a
>>result
>> >>my boundaries and that of my staff had to be both clear and powerful.
>> >>It
>> >>was inevitable I would share the role of Director, doctor, colleague,
>> >>committee member, fellow sportsperson etc. with one individual. There
>>was
>> >>no way of escaping this scenario, in fact it was the norm rather than
>>the
>> >>exception. Every psycho-dramatist goes through the progression of
>> >>client/group member, auxiliary, trainee and then colleague.
>> >>Professionalism
>> >>and personal development is about clarity of boundaries, and I believe
>> >>that
>> >>is not good enough to be saying "my boundaries are not very good' and
>> >>thereby justifying evading the issue. Life is for living fully, and
>> >>therapy
>> >>does not end at the consulting room door. Boundaries and fine tuning
>>them
>> >>is our work, let's get on with it. A person s not a "trainee" or a
>> >>''client', they, like all of us, at times, assume these roles, the role
>>of
>> >>client lasts about an hour, then its time for a change of role on both
>> >>sides.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> At times I would be in the main street of this country town and
>>someone
>> >>would assume, erroneously, that I was in the role of their doctor and
>>ask
>> >>me about a lab result. At that particular moment I was embedded in the
>> >>role
>> >>of the window shopper, and I would respond that they would not want me
>>to
>> >>be thinking of them as a disease or an illness every time that I saw
>>them.
>> >>To this comment I usually got a laugh of awareness and a spontaneous
>> >>agreement to see me or a staff member about the requirement IN THE
>> >>SURGERY.
>> >>And not on he street.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Peter Parkinson from New Zealand
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> From: list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org
>> >>[mailto:list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org] On Behalf Of Carole Oliver
>> >> Sent: Monday, 11 September 2006 6:35 a.m.
>> >> To: grace at graceworks.co.nz; list at grouptalkweb.org
>> >> Subject: Re: client or trainee
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> grace, I agree that the psychodrama community is small and we know
>>many
>> >>people, first as clients and then maybe in a psychodrama/training
>> >>group.
>> >>The roles can get murky. I think it requires a therapist who can be
>> >>very
>> >>strong with boundaries. I am a pretty friendly accessible therapist and
>>so
>> >>I find it harder to keep very strong boundaries between training,
>> >>supervision, group[p member, client.
>> >>
>> >> It is difficult to sort it all out. As for me, I wont see a person
>> >> in
>> >>individual and be their trainer. If they are in my group which is a
>> >>therapy/psychodrama group, they can log hours but if they are indivual
>> >>clients, I wont do just a training group or supervision group with
>> >>them.
>> >>Does that make sense?
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>
>> >> From: Grace
>> >>
>> >> To: list at grouptalkweb.org
>> >>
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:14 PM
>> >>
>> >> Subject: RE: client or trainee
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Kia ora Peter,
>> >>
>> >> Yes, I like your view of your work as education or adult education
>> >> (we
>> >>sometimes refer to what we do as psycho-education), although I do
>>believe
>> >>it is deep learning that we facilitate in the group of people we work
>>with
>> >>people, so I have a new descriptor to use. Thank you!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I have also been pondering on the reality of dual relationships
>> >>especially living in a small country where the degrees of separation
>> >>are
>> >>few. It's pretty difficult here in Aotearoa/NZ to meet people in
>> >>either
>> >>work or social situations who don't have an acquaintance in common. I
>> >>think Moreno gives us a great tool in Role Theory, enabling us to
>> >>become
>> >>conscious, to identify and warm up deliberately to the roles necessary
>>to
>> >>respond adequately in situations where dual relationships such as
>> >>Client
>>/
>> >>Trainee exist. One such role might be something like a 'responsible
>> >>professional' who is able to bring a wealth of technical and ethical
>> >>expertise into practice when making decisions, when in doubt consulting
>> >>with supervisors and networks. I really like that this approach
>> >>engages
>> >>the professional in the 'deep learning process' also, giving us the
>> >>opportunity to continue growing our ability to be creative and
>>spontaneous
>> >>rather than referring to entrenched and conserved rules that squash
>> >>vitality and imply that there an end to what is really an infinite
>> >>process.
>> >> This is NOT the easy road however! And we won't always get it
>> >> right-
>> >>can we live with that?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >>
>> >> Grace
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> From: list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org
>> >>[mailto:list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org] On Behalf Of Peter Howie
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, 5 September 2006 2:10 p.m.
>> >> To: Adam Blatner; list at grouptalkweb.org
>> >> Subject: Re: client or trainee
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dear Adam,
>> >>
>> >> Sorry Adam but I can't help myself.
>> >>
>> >> "So there's a cultural lag-- a need to recognize this sub-field,
>>but
>> >>still the main field of psychodrama is based on the conventional model
>>of
>> >>psychotherapy-- and training certification is also geared to this,
>>albeit
>> >>loosely. "
>> >>
>> >> I came across this quote as I was perusing some early ANZPA
>> >> thesis.
>> >>
>> >> "I have always tried to show that my approach was meant as much
>>more
>> >>than a psychotherapeutic method--my ideas have emphasized that
>>creativity
>> >>and spontaneity affect the very roots of vitality and spiritual
>> >>development, and thus affect our involvements in every sphere of our
>> >>lives.
>> >>Furthermore, I have always wanted to have people attend to the
>> >>processes
>> >>of
>> >>health, as well as to the problems of illness; thus I am glad that Dr
>> >>Blatenr has noted the applications of psychodrama in the home, school
>>and
>> >>world of business" J L Moreno, M.D., 1973 in Forward to "Acting In" by
>> >>Adam
>> >>Blatner.
>> >>
>> >> Part of our discussion involves, at an underlying level, how the
>> >>conserves of the psychotherapeutic communities/world (Psychology,
>> >>Psychoiatry, Counselling etc) have dominated some of this discussion.
>> >>It
>> >>may not be so much about the dilemmas that arise from boundary issues
>>with
>> >>clients/patients/trainees but more about how this work is
>>conceptualised.
>> >>Personally and professionally I think viewing most of our work as that
>>of
>> >>education or adult education works for me. Deep learning is deep
>>therapy.
>> >>Still working on this idea.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >>
>> >> Peter Howie
>> >> Brisbanew, Australia
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
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>> >>
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