client or trainee

[gong at artsci.wustl.edu]

Dear Ann and colleagues:

Thank you all for the discussion.  In China there is a saying "Once you are a 
teacher you are a parent for life."  To be a "parent"--especially when you 
are "a single parent" (without peers to discuss matters) is a lonesome and an 
awesome experience.  So I befriend other teachers at Universities.  The 
students do not call me by name, they simply call me "teacher".  There is no 
way to cross the boundary on either side.  

As a clinician in the US for over twenty years, I apply the therapeutic 
boundaries here.  In the beginning when I first came to work in Asia the 
students considered me cold and distant. Many student left me because of 
that.  It took ten years for them to realize that I am actually a warm human-
being.  Now the student are used to my style and realize the importance of 
therapeutic boundaries.

Shu



 > I so appreciate the candor and descriptive nature of your post on this 
> important issue. The learning, however stressful and hurtful, is the way we 
> grow into clarity and humility as professionals.  I remember in my early 
> days as a trainer (1975 or thereabouts) I was so frustrated looking about 
> for how to be a trainer. I realized that I was looking up at mentors, and 
> had the sudden realization that the best people to teach me about being a 
> trainer were students who were experts on how they learn.  Still, the 
> complexity of the relationships can be weighty without counsel and admitting 
> to oneself errors in judgment and self correction.
> 
> One reason Grouptalk is so important is it helps to dilute the isolation we 
> experience in those areas of the country and the world where colleagues are 
> not readily available for face to face consultation. Thank you again for 
> writing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Melissa Monahan" <melissa_erin_monahan at hotmail.com>
> To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 2:35 PM
> Subject: Re: client or trainee
> 
> 
> > This dialogue is so important.
> > As a student of Drama Therapy, as well as a Psychodrama trainee, I can
> > appreciate the fine and delicate line that MUST be drawn between the
> > therapist/trainer and client/trainee.
> > As a creative therapeutic novice, I had chosen to extend my trainer's role
> > to include that of individual therapist. At that time, she was more than
> > happy to expand her professional repertoire and make a monetary deal. 
> > This
> > maneuver, however, eventually proved disastrous, as the boundaries became
> > increasingly vague.
> > For example:
> >
> > *Her asking permission to eat salad during a one-on-one session.
> > *Delegating duties, that included phone calling and drumming up business 
> > for
> > her group/workshops.
> > *Assuming I'd drive her home following a back-to-back individual session 
> > and
> > training evening.
> > *Explicitly suggesting, during one-on-one psychodramatic work that, one 
> > day,
> > we'd have an office together and she would send me child clients because,
> > after all, sometimes being a solo practitioner gets "lonely."
> >
> > While I acknowledge that reality is subjective, I do believe that some of
> > the boundary issues stemmed from my trainer/therapist's insecure and egoic
> > need to be regarded as someone with a "gift" for psychodrama, or "one of 
> > the
> > best psychodramatists around" and "a role model of honesty for my 
> > clients."
> > Conversely, I am a newcomer, and instinctively welcomed any/all guidance 
> > as
> > well as professional mentoring.
> > After emerging from a profound crisis, I realized how informal and skewed
> > the relationship was; how compromised MY therapeutic process had become 
> > (and
> > at some pricey hourly rates). While such nuances certainly don't CAUSE 
> > one's
> > crisis, they're not of much HELP either.
> > Eventually, I suggested she continue to be my psychodrama trainer, but
> > divulged my decision to work one-on-one with someone else.
> > This was, naturally, met with bewildered criticism and, then, an ultimatum
> > to either work with her in individual therapy or leave her psychodrama
> > group. While I understand her motivations 
> > were---always---well-intentioned,
> > that kind of strong-arming hammered the proverbial nail into the
> > psychodramtic coffin, and I chose to abort the relationship.
> >>From this experience, I learned so much about the boundaries necessary to
> > distinguish a client from trainee, and I thank my former therapist/trainer
> > for that.
> >
> >
> > ~Melissa Erin Monahan
> >  New York City
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: Carole Oliver <caroleolivernj at optonline.net>
> >>Reply-To: list at grouptalkweb.org
> >>To: list at grouptalkweb.org
> >>Subject: Re: client or trainee
> >>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:41:18 -0700
> >>
> >>Peter, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses as clinicians. Working
> >>on one's boundaries issues are important, however, it is also equally
> >>important to know your self enough to set strong boundaries with some
> >>pretty explicit rules, no dual relationships. Kudos to you to be able to
> >>maintain all those dual roles, I know I wouldn't want so therefore 
> >>probably
> >>would not be good at it----- Original Message -----
> >>   From: Peter Parkinson
> >>   To: list at grouptalkweb.org ; grace at graceworks.co.nz
> >>   Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 12:22 PM
> >>   Subject: RE: client or trainee
> >>
> >>
> >>   I practiced psychodrama for 15 years in a community of 800 people. 
> >> About
> >>500 of these were utilizing psychodrama for their development. As a result
> >>my boundaries and that of my staff had to be both clear and powerful. It
> >>was inevitable I would share the role of Director, doctor, colleague,
> >>committee member, fellow sportsperson etc. with one individual. There was
> >>no way of escaping this scenario, in fact it was the norm rather than the
> >>exception. Every psycho-dramatist goes through the progression of
> >>client/group member, auxiliary, trainee and then colleague. 
> >>Professionalism
> >>and personal development is about clarity of boundaries, and I believe 
> >>that
> >>is not good enough to be saying "my boundaries are not very good' and
> >>thereby justifying evading the issue. Life is for living fully, and 
> >>therapy
> >>does not end at the consulting room door. Boundaries and fine tuning them
> >>is our work, let's get on with it. A person s not a "trainee" or a
> >>''client', they, like all of us, at times, assume these roles, the role of
> >>client lasts about an hour, then its time for a change of role on both
> >>sides.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   At times I would be in the main street of this country town and someone
> >>would assume, erroneously, that I was in the role of their doctor and ask
> >>me about a lab result. At that particular moment I was embedded in the 
> >>role
> >>of the window shopper, and I would respond that they would not want me to
> >>be thinking of them as a disease or an illness every time that I saw them.
> >>To this comment I usually got a laugh of awareness and a spontaneous
> >>agreement to see me or a staff member about the requirement IN THE 
> >>SURGERY.
> >>And not on he street.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   Cheers
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   Peter Parkinson from New Zealand
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> >>
> >>   From: list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org
> >>[mailto:list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org] On Behalf Of Carole Oliver
> >>   Sent: Monday, 11 September 2006 6:35 a.m.
> >>   To: grace at graceworks.co.nz; list at grouptalkweb.org
> >>   Subject: Re: client or trainee
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   grace, I agree that the psychodrama community is small and we know many
> >>people, first as clients and then maybe in a psychodrama/training group.
> >>The roles can get murky. I think it requires a therapist who can be very
> >>strong with boundaries. I am a pretty friendly accessible therapist and so
> >>I find it harder to keep very strong boundaries between training,
> >>supervision, group[p member, client.
> >>
> >>   It is difficult to sort it all out. As for me, I wont see a person in
> >>individual and be their trainer. If they are in my group which is a
> >>therapy/psychodrama group, they can log hours but if they are indivual
> >>clients, I wont do just a training group or supervision group with them.
> >>Does that make sense?
> >>
> >>     ----- Original Message -----
> >>
> >>     From: Grace
> >>
> >>     To: list at grouptalkweb.org
> >>
> >>     Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:14 PM
> >>
> >>     Subject: RE: client or trainee
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     Kia ora Peter,
> >>
> >>     Yes, I like your view of your work as education or adult education 
> >> (we
> >>sometimes refer to what we do as psycho-education), although I do believe
> >>it is deep learning that we facilitate in the group of people we work with
> >>people, so I have a new descriptor to use.  Thank you!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     I have also been pondering on the reality of dual relationships
> >>especially living in a small country where the degrees of separation are
> >>few.  It's pretty difficult here in Aotearoa/NZ to meet people in either
> >>work or social situations who don't have an acquaintance in common.  I
> >>think Moreno gives us a great tool in Role Theory, enabling us to become
> >>conscious, to identify and warm up deliberately to the roles necessary to
> >>respond adequately in situations where dual relationships such as Client /
> >>Trainee exist.  One such role might be something like a 'responsible
> >>professional' who is able to bring a wealth of technical and ethical
> >>expertise into practice when making decisions, when in doubt consulting
> >>with supervisors and networks.  I really like that this approach engages
> >>the professional in the 'deep learning process' also,  giving us the
> >>opportunity to continue growing our ability to be creative and spontaneous
> >>rather than referring to entrenched and conserved rules that squash
> >>vitality and imply that there an end to what is really an infinite 
> >>process.
> >>   This is NOT the easy road however!  And we won't always get it right-
> >>can we live with that?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     Cheers
> >>
> >>     Grace
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >>
> >>     From: list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org
> >>[mailto:list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org] On Behalf Of Peter Howie
> >>     Sent: Tuesday, 5 September 2006 2:10 p.m.
> >>     To: Adam Blatner; list at grouptalkweb.org
> >>     Subject: Re: client or trainee
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     Dear Adam,
> >>
> >>     Sorry Adam but I can't help myself.
> >>
> >>     "So there's a cultural lag-- a need to recognize this sub-field, but
> >>still the main field of psychodrama is based on the conventional model of
> >>psychotherapy-- and training certification is also geared to this, albeit
> >>loosely. "
> >>
> >>     I came across this quote as I was perusing some early ANZPA thesis.
> >>
> >>     "I have always tried to show that my approach was meant as much more
> >>than a psychotherapeutic method--my ideas have emphasized that creativity
> >>and spontaneity affect the very roots of vitality and spiritual
> >>development, and thus affect our involvements in every sphere of our 
> >>lives.
> >>Furthermore, I have always wanted to have people attend to the processes 
> >>of
> >>health, as well as to the problems of illness; thus I am glad that Dr
> >>Blatenr has noted the applications of psychodrama in the home, school and
> >>world of business" J L Moreno, M.D., 1973 in Forward to "Acting In" by 
> >>Adam
> >>Blatner.
> >>
> >>     Part of our discussion involves, at an underlying level, how the
> >>conserves of the psychotherapeutic communities/world (Psychology,
> >>Psychoiatry, Counselling etc) have dominated some of this discussion. It
> >>may not be so much about the dilemmas that arise from boundary issues with
> >>clients/patients/trainees but more about how this work is conceptualised.
> >>Personally and professionally I think viewing most of our work as that of
> >>education or adult education works for me. Deep learning is deep therapy.
> >>Still working on this idea.
> >>
> >>     Cheers
> >>
> >>     Peter Howie
> >>     Brisbanew, Australia
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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