client or trainee
Adam Blatner
adam at blatner.com
Mon Sep 11 21:12:22 CDT 2006
I would like to build on Melissa's intuition.
In therapy, there is no contract for a specific level of competence achievement. There
may be a contract for a kind of symptom relief, but even that is used for focus rather
than a guaranteed ending.
Unconditional positive regard is more maternal-- archetypally, though men can do this
well, too. The point is that there is only drawing people forth (as i have written about
on my website). There is no specific achievement.
Paternal archetypal love (which women can offer also, because it really is only
historical-cultural, not innate) is not at all unconditional: It is absolutely
conditional. I deliver not love, but pride and confirmation at achievement. You get this
when you have done well according to "their" standards, more objective standards.
Self-esteem is not a goal here. There are times when certain relationships such as
teaching brain surgeons is and should be conditional.
The goals and sub-goals should be fairly clear and spelled out, and translating this
into therapy training, it's more ambiguous, but it has to do with identifying and listing
role components and competencies. I heard that these are posted on the Toronto
Institute's website. I need to check that out.
Anyway, this is what I was talking about. To be a psychodramatist or group leader,
these goals should be specific and transcend mere good intention, sincerity, need, love--
anyone can claim these, even a semi-slacker-- . Some intelligence is needed, some degrees
of spontaneity, intuition-- and these are talents. A fair number of people are innately
non-spontaneous, overly inhibited, and somewhat dense. I question that anyone who "wants"
to be a therapist can in fact achieve this role. Indeed, I fear that a fair number of
those who have achieved it officially would not be those I'd send a friend to once I saw
the way they work.
-- Warmly, Adam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Melissa Monahan" <melissa_erin_monahan at hotmail.com>
To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: client or trainee
> After further reflection, I suggest the demarcat5on between
> therapist/trainer and client/trainee is this:
> In therapy (good therapy, anyway) there is that unconditional positive
> regard gifted by the therapist. In the trainer/trainee relationship, the
> dynamic sometimes takes on a student/teacher dimension and, thus, the
> trainee may feel the need to perform for the trainer; please them; garner
> approval. Whether this is conscious or not, only the individuals know. In my
> case, it was certainly the latter. What complicated the matter further was
> this consistent suggestion by my therapist/trainer that she would designate
> me her "assistant" at future workshops/conferences and then I could attend
> for "a reduced fee."
> During our final session, when I articulated these concerns (so what is my
> role---client, trainee, potential employee, etc.?) her response was, "This
> is what we do in the Psychodrama community, and some people can handle it."
> Alas, my decision to terminate the relationship has proven healthy,
> enlightening and, in some ways, sad.
> Again, more than anything, I now believe the Psychodramatist in question was
> operating from a fragile and often inflated ego space. Her desire for a
> potential "assistant" or "student" seems to have informed and, ultimately,
> taken precedence over what should have been her primary role---that of
> individual therapist.
> After all, that's what I was paying her for.
>
> Thank you for this dialogue,
>
> Melissa Erin Monahan
> New York City
>
>
>>From: "HV Psychodrama" <hvpi at hvc.rr.com>
>>Reply-To: list at grouptalkweb.org
>>To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>>Subject: Re: client or trainee
>>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 17:41:15 -0400
>>
>>This note makes me very sad. Too many times I have had students come to us
>>with tremendous damage done by trainers who mix their role as individual
>>therapist with trainer. I am wondering if we can't get the board to make a
>>statement about the ethics of this.
>>Rebecca Walters
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Melissa Monahan" <melissa_erin_monahan at hotmail.com>
>>To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>>Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 2:35 PM
>>Subject: Re: client or trainee
>>
>>
>> > This dialogue is so important.
>> > As a student of Drama Therapy, as well as a Psychodrama trainee, I can
>> > appreciate the fine and delicate line that MUST be drawn between the
>> > therapist/trainer and client/trainee.
>> > As a creative therapeutic novice, I had chosen to extend my trainer's
>>role
>> > to include that of individual therapist. At that time, she was more than
>> > happy to expand her professional repertoire and make a monetary deal.
>> > This
>> > maneuver, however, eventually proved disastrous, as the boundaries
>>became
>> > increasingly vague.
>> > For example:
>> >
>> > *Her asking permission to eat salad during a one-on-one session.
>> > *Delegating duties, that included phone calling and drumming up business
>> > for
>> > her group/workshops.
>> > *Assuming I'd drive her home following a back-to-back individual session
>> > and
>> > training evening.
>> > *Explicitly suggesting, during one-on-one psychodramatic work that, one
>> > day,
>> > we'd have an office together and she would send me child clients
>>because,
>> > after all, sometimes being a solo practitioner gets "lonely."
>> >
>> > While I acknowledge that reality is subjective, I do believe that some
>>of
>> > the boundary issues stemmed from my trainer/therapist's insecure and
>>egoic
>> > need to be regarded as someone with a "gift" for psychodrama, or "one of
>> > the
>> > best psychodramatists around" and "a role model of honesty for my
>> > clients."
>> > Conversely, I am a newcomer, and instinctively welcomed any/all guidance
>> > as
>> > well as professional mentoring.
>> > After emerging from a profound crisis, I realized how informal and
>>skewed
>> > the relationship was; how compromised MY therapeutic process had become
>> > (and
>> > at some pricey hourly rates). While such nuances certainly don't CAUSE
>> > one's
>> > crisis, they're not of much HELP either.
>> > Eventually, I suggested she continue to be my psychodrama trainer, but
>> > divulged my decision to work one-on-one with someone else.
>> > This was, naturally, met with bewildered criticism and, then, an
>>ultimatum
>> > to either work with her in individual therapy or leave her psychodrama
>> > group. While I understand her motivations
>> > were---always---well-intentioned,
>> > that kind of strong-arming hammered the proverbial nail into the
>> > psychodramtic coffin, and I chose to abort the relationship.
>> >>From this experience, I learned so much about the boundaries necessary
>>to
>> > distinguish a client from trainee, and I thank my former
>>therapist/trainer
>> > for that.
>> >
>> >
>> > ~Melissa Erin Monahan
>> > New York City
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: Carole Oliver <caroleolivernj at optonline.net>
>> >>Reply-To: list at grouptalkweb.org
>> >>To: list at grouptalkweb.org
>> >>Subject: Re: client or trainee
>> >>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:41:18 -0700
>> >>
>> >>Peter, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses as clinicians.
>>Working
>> >>on one's boundaries issues are important, however, it is also equally
>> >>important to know your self enough to set strong boundaries with some
>> >>pretty explicit rules, no dual relationships. Kudos to you to be able to
>> >>maintain all those dual roles, I know I wouldn't want so therefore
>> >>probably
>> >>would not be good at it----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: Peter Parkinson
>> >> To: list at grouptalkweb.org ; grace at graceworks.co.nz
>> >> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 12:22 PM
>> >> Subject: RE: client or trainee
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I practiced psychodrama for 15 years in a community of 800 people.
>> >> About
>> >>500 of these were utilizing psychodrama for their development. As a
>>result
>> >>my boundaries and that of my staff had to be both clear and powerful. It
>> >>was inevitable I would share the role of Director, doctor, colleague,
>> >>committee member, fellow sportsperson etc. with one individual. There
>>was
>> >>no way of escaping this scenario, in fact it was the norm rather than
>>the
>> >>exception. Every psycho-dramatist goes through the progression of
>> >>client/group member, auxiliary, trainee and then colleague.
>> >>Professionalism
>> >>and personal development is about clarity of boundaries, and I believe
>> >>that
>> >>is not good enough to be saying "my boundaries are not very good' and
>> >>thereby justifying evading the issue. Life is for living fully, and
>> >>therapy
>> >>does not end at the consulting room door. Boundaries and fine tuning
>>them
>> >>is our work, let's get on with it. A person s not a "trainee" or a
>> >>''client', they, like all of us, at times, assume these roles, the role
>>of
>> >>client lasts about an hour, then its time for a change of role on both
>> >>sides.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> At times I would be in the main street of this country town and
>>someone
>> >>would assume, erroneously, that I was in the role of their doctor and
>>ask
>> >>me about a lab result. At that particular moment I was embedded in the
>> >>role
>> >>of the window shopper, and I would respond that they would not want me
>>to
>> >>be thinking of them as a disease or an illness every time that I saw
>>them.
>> >>To this comment I usually got a laugh of awareness and a spontaneous
>> >>agreement to see me or a staff member about the requirement IN THE
>> >>SURGERY.
>> >>And not on he street.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Peter Parkinson from New Zealand
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> From: list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org
>> >>[mailto:list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org] On Behalf Of Carole Oliver
>> >> Sent: Monday, 11 September 2006 6:35 a.m.
>> >> To: grace at graceworks.co.nz; list at grouptalkweb.org
>> >> Subject: Re: client or trainee
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> grace, I agree that the psychodrama community is small and we know
>>many
>> >>people, first as clients and then maybe in a psychodrama/training group.
>> >>The roles can get murky. I think it requires a therapist who can be very
>> >>strong with boundaries. I am a pretty friendly accessible therapist and
>>so
>> >>I find it harder to keep very strong boundaries between training,
>> >>supervision, group[p member, client.
>> >>
>> >> It is difficult to sort it all out. As for me, I wont see a person in
>> >>individual and be their trainer. If they are in my group which is a
>> >>therapy/psychodrama group, they can log hours but if they are indivual
>> >>clients, I wont do just a training group or supervision group with them.
>> >>Does that make sense?
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>
>> >> From: Grace
>> >>
>> >> To: list at grouptalkweb.org
>> >>
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:14 PM
>> >>
>> >> Subject: RE: client or trainee
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Kia ora Peter,
>> >>
>> >> Yes, I like your view of your work as education or adult education
>> >> (we
>> >>sometimes refer to what we do as psycho-education), although I do
>>believe
>> >>it is deep learning that we facilitate in the group of people we work
>>with
>> >>people, so I have a new descriptor to use. Thank you!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I have also been pondering on the reality of dual relationships
>> >>especially living in a small country where the degrees of separation are
>> >>few. It's pretty difficult here in Aotearoa/NZ to meet people in either
>> >>work or social situations who don't have an acquaintance in common. I
>> >>think Moreno gives us a great tool in Role Theory, enabling us to become
>> >>conscious, to identify and warm up deliberately to the roles necessary
>>to
>> >>respond adequately in situations where dual relationships such as Client
>>/
>> >>Trainee exist. One such role might be something like a 'responsible
>> >>professional' who is able to bring a wealth of technical and ethical
>> >>expertise into practice when making decisions, when in doubt consulting
>> >>with supervisors and networks. I really like that this approach engages
>> >>the professional in the 'deep learning process' also, giving us the
>> >>opportunity to continue growing our ability to be creative and
>>spontaneous
>> >>rather than referring to entrenched and conserved rules that squash
>> >>vitality and imply that there an end to what is really an infinite
>> >>process.
>> >> This is NOT the easy road however! And we won't always get it right-
>> >>can we live with that?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >>
>> >> Grace
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> From: list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org
>> >>[mailto:list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org] On Behalf Of Peter Howie
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, 5 September 2006 2:10 p.m.
>> >> To: Adam Blatner; list at grouptalkweb.org
>> >> Subject: Re: client or trainee
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dear Adam,
>> >>
>> >> Sorry Adam but I can't help myself.
>> >>
>> >> "So there's a cultural lag-- a need to recognize this sub-field,
>>but
>> >>still the main field of psychodrama is based on the conventional model
>>of
>> >>psychotherapy-- and training certification is also geared to this,
>>albeit
>> >>loosely. "
>> >>
>> >> I came across this quote as I was perusing some early ANZPA thesis.
>> >>
>> >> "I have always tried to show that my approach was meant as much
>>more
>> >>than a psychotherapeutic method--my ideas have emphasized that
>>creativity
>> >>and spontaneity affect the very roots of vitality and spiritual
>> >>development, and thus affect our involvements in every sphere of our
>> >>lives.
>> >>Furthermore, I have always wanted to have people attend to the processes
>> >>of
>> >>health, as well as to the problems of illness; thus I am glad that Dr
>> >>Blatenr has noted the applications of psychodrama in the home, school
>>and
>> >>world of business" J L Moreno, M.D., 1973 in Forward to "Acting In" by
>> >>Adam
>> >>Blatner.
>> >>
>> >> Part of our discussion involves, at an underlying level, how the
>> >>conserves of the psychotherapeutic communities/world (Psychology,
>> >>Psychoiatry, Counselling etc) have dominated some of this discussion. It
>> >>may not be so much about the dilemmas that arise from boundary issues
>>with
>> >>clients/patients/trainees but more about how this work is
>>conceptualised.
>> >>Personally and professionally I think viewing most of our work as that
>>of
>> >>education or adult education works for me. Deep learning is deep
>>therapy.
>> >>Still working on this idea.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >>
>> >> Peter Howie
>> >> Brisbanew, Australia
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Grouptalk mailing list
>> >> List at grouptalkweb.org
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>> >>
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