article Sociatry and the ENcouter
bulmonte21
bulmonte21 at bluewin.ch
Thu Apr 19 14:31:26 CDT 2007
Dear Ron,
a great comment and an important in-sight - thank you very much.
I like to add only one small vignette to illustrate what you have said.
When I attented the Jerusalem PD conference in 1996 I met an israeli
writer at one of the encounter groups and we were talking about national
shame and national pride. Me born in Germany and he born in Israel were
talking in a very close, intimate way about the Holocaust and how it had
changed all our live. We did not look each other in the eyes although we
were so near. At the end of the group we stood up to say good bye. He
did not look at my eyes aagain s I was looking at him. I asked: please
look into my eyes. He began to move his head, looked in my eyes and both
of us started to cry. Then he said to me: it is so amazing. You just
said the same words my son is always telling me: please look into my
eyes because I never do. Now it has happened for the first time that I
could do so with my heart and without feeling the shame." We both
embraced eachother because I felt not only even much more shame but also
humanity as a gift.
All the best
Jorge
BARNETT WEISS schrieb:
> A meeting of two: eye to eye, face to face
> And when you are near
> I will tear out your eyes
> And place them in place of mine
> And you will tear my eyes out
> And place them instead of yours
> Then I will look at you with my eyes
> And you will look at me with mine
>
> */Edward Schreiber <edwschreiber at earthlink.net>/* wrote:
>
> Ron,
> Great comment - much appreciate your contribution - Adam's - all
> of ours, together.
> Ed
> On Apr 19, 2007, at 10:35 AM, Ronald Anderson wrote:
>
>> I feel a need to say something to the discussion of sociatry,
>> since I am conducting a training weekend on the relationship
>> between Moreno and Hellinger (Constellation Work)
>>
>> Here the two men are practically on the same page. For a
>> second, may I simplify our
>> man, Moreno, by saying that his goal was that ultimately all men
>> would come together
>> into a working relationship once they took time to understand
>> where each other was coming from, the ultimate role reversal with
>> everyone else in the world, not to agree with each other, but in
>> mutual respect for each other's position.
>>
>> Hellinger came to the same place through his experiential
>> experimentations in Germany
>> in the 80's, working with the survivors and descendents of the
>> Hollocaust, together with
>> the perpetuators, the Nazis. I played in one of these dramas,
>> as a Nazi who had given
>> the orders for the extermination. I turned away from the bodies
>> that lay around me, and
>> looked up, with my chin in the air, rationalizations coming to me
>> right and left. Then the
>> facilitator asked me to look at them. I had a hard time doing
>> that, but the facilitator kept after me to look. After what
>> seemed like 10 minutes, my body shook, and finally I yelled out a
>> piercing scream, my own body collapsed, and I lay next to one of
>> my victims. Still the facilitator made me turn my head and look
>> at one of my victims, who turned automatically and looked back at
>> me. With that look, I felt the common humanity, and
>> understood. I had finally came to a peace inside. Every time
>> Hellinger made the victims and their perpetrators look at each
>> other, */SEE each other, /*the result was the same as
>> Moreno's goal of universal role reversal, where we could also see
>> each other's humanity, proven now by the experiential method itself
>>
>> Ron Anderson.
>>
>> */Adam Blatner <adam at blatner.com <mailto:adam at blatner.com>>/* wrote:
>>
>> I tend to agree with Jim, for yet another reason: Sometimes I
>> find the argumentation to be
>> overgeneralized, the semantic distortions obvious, and so
>> forth, yet hate to speak up lest
>> I be accused of mere pedantry. Yet I feel weight tends to be
>> given to the most emotional,
>> lest any objection be viewed as doubting the sincerity of the
>> passionate one, or the
>> rightness of the cause. More modest proposals or stances seem
>> puny or wishy-washy.
>> Nevertheless, it is often the more modest stances, ones with
>> more qualifications in their
>> arguments, that are the more rational.
>> So there's a sociometric dynamic: Can I object to this or
>> that turn of statement
>> without feeling that others will be overly angry?
>> Thus does intemperate language affect the social field.
>> hm.
>> Adam
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "James Sacks"
>> To:
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 6:58 PM
>> Subject: Re: article Sociatry
>>
>>
>> > Hey, you guys,
>> > GroupTalk is not about international politics. If we get
>> into that it
>> > would deviate us well beyond the scope of our reason for being.
>> > People on all sides of political issues have very strong
>> feelings
>> > about their views but we as socidramatists are supposed to
>> learn how
>> > to deal with such divided feelings in a group, not enter
>> into the
>> > fray by fighting it out as a partisan for one side or the
>> other on
>> > GroupTalk. We all have are views but we don't start telling our
>> > favorite recipes in a class in mathematics no matter good
>> they taste
>> > and, if someone is so inappropriate as to do that, we don't
>> argue
>> > back about how bad it tastes.
>> > Jim
>> >
>> >>I find Pinter's article a simplistic reaction and
>> polarization of complex
>> >>historical issues. I am not supporting the war, or Bush, or
>> the US. I see
>> >>much of what is happening as systemic and historical; I see
>> a larger world
>> >>and evolutionary picture. Right now US is the major player
>> and "fighting"
>> >>to remain so. The long history of British colonization has
>> probably had more
>> >>to with what is happening today than what the US has done
>> historically,
>> >>although the US has been in the "role" for decades. Many of
>> the European
>> >>nations had historical parts in the conflicts around the
>> world Pinter
>> >>mentions, eg, the middle east, a conflict whose seeds were
>> sown in centuries
>> >>of European colonization and hatred. Yet, I see all of
>> these problems as
>> >>based on human evolution, and how societies have formed and
>> functioned, and
>> >>have not evolved from domination world views and practices.
>> >>
>> >>Pinter's reaction is typical of social activism that only
>> knows protest and
>> >>polarization to try to stop what is happening. And is a
>> reaction typical of
>> >>social activists who demonize one side over the other,
>> making one side seem
>> >>the innocent victim, which also is not historically or
>> currently accurate.
>> >>That is confronting the dynamics of the problem with the
>> same dynamics; Bush
>> >>is demonizing, so demonize back.
>> >>
>> >>Also, I don't think it's effective. I have marched the
>> marches, much in
>> >>the 60's and some recently. I marched with 10's of millions
>> of others
>> >>around the globe to protest the Iraq war from happening,
>> and how effective
>> >>was that? I am coming to believe that marching and
>> protesting are pissing
>> >>in the wind, b/c it is attempting to address historical
>> systemic issues with
>> >>polarization, when what is needed is systemic transformation, a
>> >>transcendence in human evolution.
>> >>
>> >>I believe there are seeds for contributing to this human
>> transformation in
>> >>the sociometric concepts Moreno was forming. We have
>> discussed this some on
>> >>this list before, ie, how to apply these concepts to larger
>> societies. It
>> >>is astronomically complex. But until the transformation of
>> systemic
>> >>dynamics of historical societal structures, I don't think
>> anything will
>> >>change...unless the planet is destroyed first. No one has
>> the answers yet,
>> >>but demonizing one side over the other and polarizing,
>> although I understand
>> >>it emotionally, is not contributing to change. If anything,
>> it is the
>> >>status quo.
>> >>
>> >>Cynthia Gayle, CP
>> >>Seattle
>> >>
>> >>----- Original Message -----
>> >>From:
>> >>To:
>> >>Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 6:33 PM
>> >>Subject: : article
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -- >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Remember we were talking about Britain....and what the
>> heck are they
>> >>> >saying in England
>> >>> > well, this article came out in England and at least
>> some Brits are
>> >>> >thinking.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=12453§ionID=72
>> >>> >ZNet
>> >>> >Why George Bush is Insane
>> >>> >By Harold Pinter (Nobel Prize Winning Author)
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Earlier this year I had a major operation for
>> >>> >cancer. The operation and its after-effects
>> >>> >were something of a nightmare. I felt I was a
>> >>> >man unable to swim bobbing about under water in
>> >>> >a deep dark endless ocean. But I did not drown
>> >>> >and I am very glad to be alive.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >However, I found that to emerge from a personal
>> >>> >nightmare was to enter an infinitely more
>> >> > >pervasive public nightmare - the nightmare of
>> >> > >American hysteria, ignorance, arrogance,
>> >>> >stupidity and belligerence; the most powerful
>> >>> >nation the world has ever known effectively
>> >>> >waging war against the rest of the world. "If
>> >>> >you are not with us you are against us"
>> >>> >President Bush has said. He has also said "We
>> >>> >will not allow the world's worst weapons to
>> >>> >remain in the hands of the world's worst
>> >>> >leaders". Quite right. Look in the mirror chum.
>> >>> >That's you.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >The US is at this moment developing advanced
>> >>> >systems of "weapons of mass destruction" and it
>> >>> >prepared to use them where it sees fit. It has
>> >>> >more of them than the rest of the world put
>> >>> >together. It has walked away from international
>> >>> >agreements on biological and chemical weapons,
>> >>> >refusing to allow inspection of its own
>> >>> >factories. The hypocrisy behind its public
>> >>> >declarations and its own actions is almost a
>> >>> >joke.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >The United States believes that the three
>> >>> >thousand deaths in New York are the only deaths
>> >>> >that count, the only deaths that matter. They
>> >>> >are American deaths. Other deaths are unreal,
>> >>> >abstract, of no consequence.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >The three thousand deaths in Afghanistan are
>> >>> >never referred to.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >The hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children
>> >>> >dead through US and British sanctions which
>> >>> >have deprived them of essential medicines are
>> >>> >never referred to.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >The effect of depleted uranium, used by America
>> >>> >in the Gulf War, is never referred to.
>> >>> >Radiation levels in Iraq are appallingly high.
>> >>> >Babies are born with no brain, no eyes, no
>> >>> >genitals. Where they do have ears, mouths or
>> >>> >rectums, all that issues from these orifices is
>> >>> >blood.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >The two hundred thousand deaths in East Timor
>> >>> >in 1975 brought about by the Indonesian
>> >>> >government but inspired and supported by the
>> >>> >United States are never referred to.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >The half a million deaths in Guatemala, Chile,
>> >>> >El Salvador, Nicaragua, Uruguay, Argentina and
>> >>> >Haiti, in actions supported and subsidised by
>> >>> >the United States are never referred to.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >The millions of deaths in Vietnam, Laos and
>> >>> >Cambodia are no longer referred to.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >The desperate plight of the Palestinian people,
>> >>> >the central factor in world unrest, is hardly
>> >>> >referred to.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >But what a misjudgement of the present and what
>> >>> >a misreading of history this is.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >People do not forget. They do not forget the
>> >>> >death of their fellows, they do not forget
>> >>> >torture and mutilation, they do not forget
>> >>> >injustice, they do not forget oppression, they
>> >>> >do not forget the terrorism of mighty powers.
>> >>> >They not only don't forget. They strike back.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >The atrocity in New York was predictable and
>> >>> >inevitable. It was an act of retaliation
>> >>> >against constant and systematic manifestations
>> >>> >of state terrorism on the part of the United
>> >>> >States over many years, in all parts of the
>> >>> >world.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >In Britain the public is now being warned to be
>> >>> >"vigilant" in preparation for potential
>> >>> >terrorist acts. The language is in itself
>> >>> >preposterous.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >How will - or can - public vigilance be
>> >>> >embodied? Wearing a scarf over your mouth to
>> >>> >keep out poison gas? However, terrorist attacks
>> >>> >are quite likely, the inevitable result of our
>> >>> >Prime Minister's contemptible and shameful
>> >>> >subservience to the United States. Apparently,
>> >>> >a terrorist poison gas attack on the London
>> >>> >Underground system was recently prevented. But
>> >>> >such an act may indeed take place. Thousands of
>> >>> >school children travel on the London
>> >>> >Underground every day. If there is a poison gas
>> >>> >attack from which they die, the responsibility
>> >>> >will rest entirely on the shoulders of our
>> >>> >Prime Minister. Needless to say, the Prime
>> >>> >Minister does not travel on the underground
>> >>> >himself.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >The planned war against Iraq is in fact a plan
>> >>> >for premeditated murder of thousands of
>> >>> >civilians in order, apparently, to rescue them
>> >>> >from their dictator.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >The United States and Britain are pursuing a
>> >>> >course which can lead only to an escalation of
>> >> > >violence throughout the world and finally to
>> >> > >catastrophe.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >It is obvious, however, that the United States
>> >>> >is bursting at the seams to attack Iran. I
>> >>> >believe that it will do this - not just to take
>> >>> >control of Iraqi oil - but because the US
>> >>> >administration is now a bloodthirsty wild
>> >>> >animal. Bombs are its only vocabulary. Many
>> >>> >Americans, we know, are horrified by the
>> >>> >posture of their government but seem to be
>> >>> >helpless.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Unless Europe finds the solidarity,
>> >>> >intelligence, courage and will to challenge and
>> >>> >resist US power Europe itself will deserve
>> >>> >Alexander Herzen's definition (as quoted in the
>> >>> >Guardian newspaper in London recently) "We are
>> >>> >not the doctors. We are the disease".
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Harold Pinter
>> >>> >
>> >>> >The Assassinated Press
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --------
>> >>> > See what's free at AOL.com.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >________________________________________________________________________
>> >>> >AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more
>> about what's free
>> >>> >from AOL at AOL.com.
>> >>> >=0
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Grouptalk mailing list
>> >>> List at grouptalkweb.org <mailto:List at grouptalkweb.org>
>> >>>
>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Grouptalk mailing list
>> >>List at grouptalkweb.org <mailto:List at grouptalkweb.org>
>> >>http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>> >
>> >
>> > Grouptalk mailing list
>> > List at grouptalkweb.org <mailto:List at grouptalkweb.org>
>> > http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.1/765 - Release
>> Date: 4/17/2007 5:20 PM
>> >
>>
>>
>> Grouptalk mailing list
>> List at grouptalkweb.org <mailto:List at grouptalkweb.org>
>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>
>>
>> Grouptalk mailing list
>> List at grouptalkweb.org <mailto:List at grouptalkweb.org>
>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>
> Grouptalk mailing list
> List at grouptalkweb.org
> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>
>
>
>
> Barnett J. Weiss, MA, LCSW
> *7410 Ridge Blvd 2D
> Brooklyn, NY 11209
> E-Mail: Budweiss at verizon.net <mailto:Budweiss at verizon.net> *
> *Cell (917)-751-3395 *
> *web page: WWW.BURNLOUNGE.COM/BUDSLOUNGE
> <http://www.BURNLOUNGE.COM/BUDSLOUNGE>*
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Grouptalk mailing list
> List at grouptalkweb.org
> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>
More information about the List
mailing list