urgency & philosophy

Mon Dec 31 17:26:39 CST 2007

Dear Adam,
Much thanks for your comments ,and the sweetness of your tone. I wish I understood what you meant by:
" What occurs to me, though, 
is that for every introspective person there are a thousand who sense the shame 
associated with life choices and unconsciously turn against or find annoying 
whoever they perceive to be the projected shame-ers, the external image of those 
who seem to resonate with the superego attitudes. Alas, these may be those who 
are advocating some otherwise plausible or even noble cause, but because we 
can't live up to what we think are their values, we come to resent both them and 
those values!
       We choose other 
paths, back away, etc"
Who are the thousands who....etc?
The public in general ,whatever that means?
.I
think my sense of discomfort has to do with being a bit on the vague
side of Bar Hillel's: "if not me  then who,and if I  am for myself who
am i,and if not now then when?"
But i think that we all struggle with that , .and then tune into tv,email etc to lessen the burden of such responsibility.
Yes.
Tele,sociometry...it all opens eyes for new possibilities  of thinking
of reality. and then  -go figure out how  to live it....
Such a pleasure  -your comments.
Happy New Year!
anath

From: anathga at hotmail.com
To: adam at blatner.com
Subject: RE: urgency & philosophy
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 23:22:04 +0000

Dear Adam,
Much thanks for your comments ,and the sweetness of your tone. I wish I understood what you meant by:
" What occurs to me, though, 
is that for every introspective person there are a thousand who sense the shame 
associated with life choices and unconsciously turn against or find annoying 
whoever they perceive to be the projected shame-ers, the external image of those 
who seem to resonate with the superego attitudes. Alas, these may be those who 
are advocating some otherwise plausible or even noble cause, but because we 
can't live up to what we think are their values, we come to resent both them and 
those values!
       We choose other 
paths, back away, etc"
Who are the thousands who....etc?
The public in general ,whatever that means?
.I think my sense of discomfort has to do with being a bit on the vague side of Bar Hillel's: "if not me  then who,and if I  am for myself who am i,and if not now then when?"
But i think that we all struggle with that , .and then tune into tv,email etc to lessen the burden of such responsibility.
Yes. Tele,sociometry...it all opens eyes for new possibilities  of thinking of reality. and then  -go figure out how  to live it....
Such a pleasure  -your comments.
anath

From: adam at blatner.com
To: anathga at hotmail.com; list at grouptalkweb.org
Subject: urgency & philosophy
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 09:55:19 -0600

Dear Anath,
    The interesting thing about your email 
is that you, a truly marvelous and introspective woman, would be plagued with 
shame about very plausible life choices. That's one way we can support each 
other, perhaps. 
     What occurs to me, though, 
is that for every introspective person there are a thousand who sense the shame 
associated with life choices and unconsciously turn against or find annoying 
whoever they perceive to be the projected shame-ers, the external image of those 
who seem to resonate with the superego attitudes. Alas, these may be those who 
are advocating some otherwise plausible or even noble cause, but because we 
can't live up to what we think are their values, we come to resent both them and 
those values!
       We choose other 
paths, back away, etc.

       Shame avoidance is a 
very pervasive dynamic at every level of mind---intra-psychic, interpersonal, 
small group, large group, and culture---and thus a profound factor in 
sociometry. 

     Anyway, I haven't addressed 
the content issue of how we may choose to be socially active, ecologically 
conscious, etc.---I have no opinions on that. Whatever you want to do is okay. 
What's interesting is that you yourself are aware of some different plausible 
choices (e.g., use the dryer, see another client, give the money to a cause; 
versus extra time involved in not using the dryer). I'm, like, whatever. I just 
want to be supportive of a nice person. Here relationship trumps policy or 
opinion. I've noticed that on many occasions I don't bother forming or holding 
tightly to opinions and prefer instead to just maintain harmony with my pals. 
Certainly, much of marriage seems to be that way with me---I don't even notice 
what might be otherwise annoying if I weren't in a high-tele 
connection.

    (I find that thinking about tele and 
sociometry continues to open new insights.)

Well, thanks for the stimulating of my thinking.

----- Original Message ----- 

  From: 
  thana ag 

  To: Adam Blatner ; list at grouptalkweb.org 
  Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 11:09 
  PM
  Subject: RE: urgency & 
  philosophy

> Dear Adam, Ed, Rebbecca,Connie,Ann -and folks from the list 
  serve

It is really wonderful to have a place where we can express our 
  views,what we are passionate about,and  what  we feel ashamed 
  about.
I resonate with everyone.

Yet it all reminds me a story about 
  Maslow In a car ride  from Esalen Institute,he and few students were 
  talking peak experiences. A young woman in the  back seat. thought she 
  had one. Did you have a peak experience?-she asked Maslow.
 "No! 
  That's why i write about them."

So here is my point fixing 
  society,,others etc. After all it is you and I who are the society. If 
  we  change ourselves -no need to change others!!!.  Because they 
  will be changing along with us. The thousand's monkey syndrome....Sounds 
  simple? sure. But  easy ?!

  About  the environmental 
  challenge: how many of the concerned ore using a dryer,(the worst 
  emission  producer  among household appliances) -despite  big 
  back yards,how many carpool, as a policy, are aware of using 
  water,economically etc.not because they are poor. 
Few years ago my dryer 
  broke down. Researching,in attempt to buy another one I learned about its 
  polluting properties. After few month I realized hat i could live with out it. 
  Then went the microwave etc. I can make do without a dryer,though it requires 
  more planning doing the laundry,and hired help refuses. So i am doing the 
  laundry.

Do  I tell anyone about it? No, I am quite  
  ashamed,since  I know  that my little input makes no dent really,and 
  in return for the time i spent doing the laundry I could see two patients,and 
  contribute the money to an organization who fights for environmental 
  causes.....or do some real charity work...or plan what other could do to 
  lessen pollution.

For years I 've been ashamed, that i am not 
  politically active. This year I was asked to advice to one of the presidential 
  candidates... while the negotiations went on I was almost euphoric, perhaps 
  there was my chance to  finally  get  involved....
But 
  that  would require a big time commitment. Should  I then get a 
  dryer? a microwave etc(and feel very justified: let other people 
  economize)

Being a  product of my society that exhorts me to do 
  and to accomplish, i feel guilty when i don't  challenge 
  myself..    then can do my laundry....

Happy New 
  Year!!!
anath
,
> From: adam at blatner.com
> To: 
  edwschreiber at earthlink.net
> Subject: urgency & philosophy
> 
  Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 10:25:09 -0600
> CC: list at grou
> Dear Ed 
  and others,
> This email leaves the issue of the source of a quote, and 
  speaks rather to your 
> perspective of urgency of ecological 
  work.
> First, of course you're right about the time theme.
> (I'm 
  even reminded of Al Gore's interview in the recent time Magazine as the 2nd 
  place 
> person-of-the-year).
> 
> Yet, to shift the 
  perspective a little, your urgency and passion, while noble, also 
> 
  brings up some issues that deal with sociometry: How much worry is optimal? 
  And might 
> people choose others who share similar tolerances for the 
  degrees of worry they "vibrate 
> with"?
> 
> From other 
  recent issues, I've become more aware that when it comes to worry, too much 

> makes me crazy, arouses my limbic system so that I can't think 
  straight.
> I remember a funny mantra: When in trouble or in doubt, run 
  in circles, scream 
> and shout!
> 
> Yes, a little edge, a 
  little worry, is needed for arousing the nervous system to optimal 
> 
  engagement.
> Too little and I become complacent, drugged, un-engaged. 
  (This is one of the pitfalls 
> of drugs, alcohol, and for many, 
  television and other pseudo-addictions and escapes.)
> There is a range 
  that seems just right---I do my work with my skills in my area of 
> 
  interest and ability. I may stretch a bit, give a bit to this or that 
  political cause.
> But I find myself becoming wary about associating 
  with acquaintances or groups who 
> engage in levels of worry that I 
  find abrasive, upsetting.
> 
> This is important, because we are 
  exhorted by thousands of sources to do more and 
> more. And there's 
  always more to do! politically, socially, etc.
> Worse, it's often quite 
  unclear what must be done.
> Meeting and talking about it with no 
  particular suggestions to consider 
> rarely generates truly useful 
  solutions unless it's dealing with something very local, 
> such as is 
  one's own business (i.e., brainstorming)---and even then, no guarantee that 
  the 
> improvisations and ideas will be fruitful. Even harder if the 
  challenge requires the 
> cooperation and collaboration of scores or 
  hundreds or thousands of groups, becomes 
> national and international 
  in scope.
> How about giving money to a cause? Which cause? How do we 
  know they're more 
> efficient than many organizations who are 
  strikingly inefficient? And in many cases, 
> throwing money at a 
  problem may go into the hands of corrupt politicians.
> 
> There's 
  also the problem of recognizing and responding to how much worry can be 

> tolerable. (Here's where an issue of tele comes in.) There are some 
  social and religious 
> groups that carry a higher degree of urgency--- 
  social action oriented, missionary 
> oriented, this or that cause about 
  homosexuality, abortion, women wanting to be 
> priests---whatever the 
  issue, however you may agree or disagree with a given position, the 
> 
  point is that for some groups these concerns are accompanied by a sense of 
  urgency and 
> worry.
> Often these groups perceive other groups 
  or people who seek more comfort and peace 
> of mind to be, well, 
  complacent, and morally deficient, worthy of being judged and 
> 
  scolded: "Stop living in denial!"
> . And perhaps for some there's more 
  than a germ of truth: There are folks who are 
> indeed 
  complacent.
> And others are in-between:
> (I remember a blessing 
  that goes:
> May the Holy Spirit forever continue to comfort... and 
  disturb... 
> u. )
> 
> The sociometric theme is that some 
  folks feel vulnerable for not being more noble, 
> but can't handle with 
  any comfort the degrees of worry and urgency claimed by other folks. 
> 
  It then depends on who seems to be the great majority. (Scott Adams, the 
  Dilbert 
> cartoonist, notes that in any encounter the one who is more 
  insane tends to dominate.) So 
> in a group in which the more worried 
  ones represent maybe 30%, that will end up seeming 
> like a majority to 
  the quieter, lower-key others.
> 
> I haven't known how to talk 
  about this because, on reflection, I used to feel 
> guilty, ashamed, 
  vulnerable for not wanting to get too het up about certain political 
> 
  issues. I realized gradually that worrying carries a threshold---some folks 
  find it to be 
> painful when done at 40% (at 80% it's called agitated 
  depression and it can be one of the 
> worst, hellish feelings. I tasted 
  this once in early 2002 following a flu syndrome. 
> Cleared up with 
  SSRIs.).
> Some folks like that edge and become accustomed to and even 
  desirous of 
> entertaining worry, stress---for them it's optimal 
  challenge. Generally that may be at, 
> say, 14-20% Others really suffer 
  when they are preached at to worry about things at a 
> level of more 
  than 10%
> My hunch is that kids at play, really engaged, spontaneous, 
  trying out different 
> solutions, are vibrating at a level of 
  excitement, making mistakes, feeling just an edge 
> of shame and fear 
  that their mistakes may become too much, but this keeps them alert. They 

> don't want the game to be any less challenging. I put this at around 
  5%
> 
> I know I feel very engaged and am quite active within my 
  own range. But 10% starts to 
> mentally, emotionally "hurt."
> So 
  I just don't get heroic in certain ways. I can't justify not wanting to do 
  more---I 
> wonder if even saying "it hurts" makes me seem like a 
  wuss.
> 
> But I've come to a point of reflection where I can not 
  only accept my limits, but 
> affirm them. This applies also to some 
  other roles in my life. I'm not going to go much 
> past what Vygotsky 
  the Russian developmental psychologist calls the ZPD, the zone of 
> 
  proximal development, the region where I can stretch a little, but not get 
  overloaded. 
> (That's the aforementioned 5%)
> 
> Thanks 
  for helping me look at this dynamic. I wonder if anyone else senses this 

> edge of when are certain issues "too much" and when do I want to 
  address them. I also note 
> that the variable of "what precisely can I 
  do" is a factor here. My angle is to promote 
> psychological literacy 
  in my corner of the world, and on my website, etc.
> 
> warmly, 
  Adam 
> 
> 
> Grouptalk mailing list
> 
  List at grouptalkweb.org
> 
  http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org

  Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. Share now! 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free 
  Edition. 
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1202 - Release Date: 
  12/29/2007 1:27 PM

Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out!

_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://grouptalkweb.org/pipermail/list_grouptalkweb.org/attachments/20071231/6278ef83/attachment.html 