Hillel Quote

Mon Dec 31 20:35:11 CST 2007

Dear Bud,
I like your Rabbi's interpretation,though there are many other possible interpretations. Lots is lost in translation. Hebrew renders itself to several layers of meaning reflecting the level of the questioner. But I am sure you know that.
SO as you grow you develop you wrestle with new level of interpretation,Something like that.
Happy New Year,!
anath

Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:24:37 -0800
From: budweiss at verizon.net
Subject: Hillel Quote
To: anathga at hotmail.com

I learned that quote back when I was about 10. I always get it wrong in Hebrew and I am quite certain of the translation it is "If I am not for myself, then who will be for me" meaning here being that G_d could not be praised if I were not to value myself for then someone who considered himself as nothing was praising G_d who is everything which in and of itself is a kind of conundrum. Second part, "If I am for myself alone, who am I?" clear meaning there: Once I have stood up and acknowledged myself, instantly, I acknowledge G_d and others and am for supporting and assisting others in their path. And of course the final coup de gras "If not now, When?" for what or whom am I waiting? I am the only one who in this sense can be the prime mover acknowledging both myself and G_d at the same moment. Not one before the other,both simultaeniously. Ah well. so much for the teachings of my Rabbi.   I actually have used that statement of Hillel's on thousands of
 occasions.   Blessings Bud

thana ag <anathga at hotmail.com> wrote:      
                    Dear
 Adam,
Much thanks for your comments ,and the sweetness of your tone. I wish I understood what you meant by:
" What occurs to me, though, is that for every introspective person there are a thousand who sense the shame associated with life choices and unconsciously turn against or find annoying whoever they perceive to be the projected shame-ers, the external image of those who seem to resonate with the superego attitudes. Alas, these may be those who are advocating some otherwise plausible or even noble cause, but because we can't live up to what we think are their values, we come to resent both them and those values!          We choose other paths, back away, etc"
Who are the thousands who....etc?
The public in general ,whatever that means?
.I think my sense of discomfort has to do with being a bit on the vague side of Bar Hillel's: "if not me  then who,and if I  am for
 myself who am i,and if not now then when?"
But i think that we all struggle with that , .and then tune into tv,email etc to lessen the burden of such responsibility.
Yes. Tele,sociometry...it all opens eyes for new possibilities  of thinking of reality. and then  -go figure out how  to live it....
Such a pleasure  -your comments.
Happy New Year!
anath

      From: anathga at hotmail.com
To: adam at blatner.com
Subject: RE: urgency & philosophy
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 23:22:04 +0000

                  Dear Adam,
Much thanks for your comments ,and the sweetness of your tone. I wish I understood what you meant by:
" What occurs to me, though, is that for every introspective person there are a thousand who sense the shame associated with life choices and unconsciously turn against or find annoying whoever they perceive to be the projected shame-ers, the external image of those who seem to resonate with the superego attitudes. Alas, these may be those who are advocating some otherwise plausible or even noble cause, but because we can't live up to what we think are their values, we come to resent both them and those values!          We choose other paths, back away,
 etc"
Who are the thousands who....etc?
The public in general ,whatever that means?
.I think my sense of discomfort has to do with being a bit on the vague side of Bar Hillel's: "if not me  then who,and if I  am for myself who am i,and if not now then when?"
But i think that we all struggle with that , .and then tune into tv,email etc to lessen the burden of such responsibility.
Yes. Tele,sociometry...it all opens eyes for new possibilities  of thinking of reality. and then  -go figure out how  to live it....
Such a pleasure  -your comments.
anath
      From: adam at blatner.com
To: anathga at hotmail.com; list at grouptalkweb.org
Subject: urgency & philosophy
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 09:55:19 -0600

      Dear Anath,      The interesting thing about your email is that you, a truly marvelous and introspective woman, would be plagued with shame about very plausible life choices. That's one way we can support each other, perhaps.        What occurs to me, though, is that for every introspective person there are a thousand who sense the shame associated with life choices and unconsciously turn against or find annoying whoever they perceive to be the projected shame-ers, the external image of those who seem to resonate with the superego attitudes. Alas, these may be those who are advocating some otherwise plausible or even noble cause, but because we can't live up to what we think are their values, we come to resent both them and those values!         We choose other
 paths, back away, etc.            Shame avoidance is a very pervasive dynamic at every level of mind---intra-psychic, interpersonal, small group, large group, and culture---and thus a profound factor in sociometry.           Anyway, I haven't addressed the content issue of how we may choose to be socially active, ecologically conscious, etc.---I have no opinions on that. Whatever you want to do is okay. What's interesting is that you yourself are aware of some different plausible choices (e.g., use the dryer, see another client, give the money to a cause; versus extra time involved in not using the dryer). I'm, like, whatever. I just want to be supportive of a nice person. Here relationship trumps policy or opinion. I've noticed that on many occasions I don't bother
 forming or holding tightly to opinions and prefer instead to just maintain harmony with my pals. Certainly, much of marriage seems to be that way with me---I don't even notice what might be otherwise annoying if I weren't in a high-tele connection.         (I find that thinking about tele and sociometry continues to open new insights.)                     Well, thanks for the stimulating of my thinking.     ----- Original Message -----     From: thana ag   To: Adam Blatner ; list at grouptalkweb.org   Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 11:09 PM  Subject: RE: urgency & philosophy  

> Dear Adam, Ed, Rebbecca,Connie,Ann -and folks from the list serve

It is really wonderful to have a place where we can express our views,what we
 are passionate about,and  what  we feel ashamed about.
I resonate with everyone.

Yet it all reminds me a story about Maslow In a car ride  from Esalen Institute,he and few students were talking peak experiences. A young woman in the  back seat. thought she had one. Did you have a peak experience?-she asked Maslow.
 "No! That's why i write about them."

So here is my point fixing society,,others etc. After all it is you and I who are the society. If we  change ourselves -no need to change others!!!.  Because they will be changing along with us. The thousand's monkey syndrome....Sounds simple? sure. But  easy ?!

  About  the environmental challenge: how many of the concerned ore using a dryer,(the worst emission  producer  among household appliances) -despite  big back yards,how many carpool, as a policy, are aware of using water,economically etc.not because they are poor. 
Few
 years ago my dryer broke down. Researching,in attempt to buy another one I learned about its polluting properties. After few month I realized hat i could live with out it. Then went the microwave etc. I can make do without a dryer,though it requires more planning doing the laundry,and hired help refuses. So i am doing the laundry.

Do  I tell anyone about it? No, I am quite  ashamed,since  I know  that my little input makes no dent really,and in return for the time i spent doing the laundry I could see two patients,and contribute the money to an organization who fights for environmental causes.....or do some real charity work...or plan what other could do to lessen pollution.

For years I 've been ashamed, that i am not politically active. This year I was asked to advice to one of the presidential candidates... while the negotiations went on I was almost euphoric, perhaps there was my chance to  finally  get 
 involved....
But that  would require a big time commitment. Should  I then get a dryer? a microwave etc(and feel very justified: let other people economize)

Being a  product of my society that exhorts me to do and to accomplish, i feel guilty when i don't  challenge myself..    then can do my laundry....

Happy New Year!!!
anath
,
> From: adam at blatner.com
> To: edwschreiber at earthlink.net
> Subject: urgency & philosophy
> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 10:25:09 -0600
> CC: list at grou
> Dear Ed and others,
> This email leaves the issue of the source of a quote, and speaks rather to your 
> perspective of urgency of ecological work.
> First, of course you're right about the time theme.
> (I'm even reminded of Al Gore's interview in the recent time Magazine as the 2nd place 
> person-of-the-year).
> 
> Yet, to shift the perspective a little, your
 urgency and passion, while noble, also 
> brings up some issues that deal with sociometry: How much worry is optimal? And might 
> people choose others who share similar tolerances for the degrees of worry they "vibrate 
> with"?
> 
> From other recent issues, I've become more aware that when it comes to worry, too much 
> makes me crazy, arouses my limbic system so that I can't think straight.
> I remember a funny mantra: When in trouble or in doubt, run in circles, scream 
> and shout!
> 
> Yes, a little edge, a little worry, is needed for arousing the nervous system to optimal 
> engagement.
> Too little and I become complacent, drugged, un-engaged. (This is one of the pitfalls 
> of drugs, alcohol, and for many, television and other pseudo-addictions and escapes.)
> There is a range that seems just right---I do my work with my skills in my area of 
> interest and ability. I may
 stretch a bit, give a bit to this or that political cause.
> But I find myself becoming wary about associating with acquaintances or groups who 
> engage in levels of worry that I find abrasive, upsetting.
> 
> This is important, because we are exhorted by thousands of sources to do more and 
> more. And there's always more to do! politically, socially, etc.
> Worse, it's often quite unclear what must be done.
> Meeting and talking about it with no particular suggestions to consider 
> rarely generates truly useful solutions unless it's dealing with something very local, 
> such as is one's own business (i.e., brainstorming)---and even then, no guarantee that the 
> improvisations and ideas will be fruitful. Even harder if the challenge requires the 
> cooperation and collaboration of scores or hundreds or thousands of groups, becomes 
> national and international in scope.
> How about giving
 money to a cause? Which cause? How do we know they're more 
> efficient than many organizations who are strikingly inefficient? And in many cases, 
> throwing money at a problem may go into the hands of corrupt politicians.
> 
> There's also the problem of recognizing and responding to how much worry can be 
> tolerable. (Here's where an issue of tele comes in.) There are some social and religious 
> groups that carry a higher degree of urgency--- social action oriented, missionary 
> oriented, this or that cause about homosexuality, abortion, women wanting to be 
> priests---whatever the issue, however you may agree or disagree with a given position, the 
> point is that for some groups these concerns are accompanied by a sense of urgency and 
> worry.
> Often these groups perceive other groups or people who seek more comfort and peace 
> of mind to be, well, complacent, and morally deficient, worthy
 of being judged and 
> scolded: "Stop living in denial!"
> . And perhaps for some there's more than a germ of truth: There are folks who are 
> indeed complacent.
> And others are in-between:
> (I remember a blessing that goes:
> May the Holy Spirit forever continue to comfort... and disturb... 
> u. )
> 
> The sociometric theme is that some folks feel vulnerable for not being more noble, 
> but can't handle with any comfort the degrees of worry and urgency claimed by other folks. 
> It then depends on who seems to be the great majority. (Scott Adams, the Dilbert 
> cartoonist, notes that in any encounter the one who is more insane tends to dominate.) So 
> in a group in which the more worried ones represent maybe 30%, that will end up seeming 
> like a majority to the quieter, lower-key others.
> 
> I haven't known how to talk about this because, on reflection, I used to feel

> guilty, ashamed, vulnerable for not wanting to get too het up about certain political 
> issues. I realized gradually that worrying carries a threshold---some folks find it to be 
> painful when done at 40% (at 80% it's called agitated depression and it can be one of the 
> worst, hellish feelings. I tasted this once in early 2002 following a flu syndrome. 
> Cleared up with SSRIs.).
> Some folks like that edge and become accustomed to and even desirous of 
> entertaining worry, stress---for them it's optimal challenge. Generally that may be at, 
> say, 14-20% Others really suffer when they are preached at to worry about things at a 
> level of more than 10%
> My hunch is that kids at play, really engaged, spontaneous, trying out different 
> solutions, are vibrating at a level of excitement, making mistakes, feeling just an edge 
> of shame and fear that their mistakes may become too much, but this
 keeps them alert. They 
> don't want the game to be any less challenging. I put this at around 5%
> 
> I know I feel very engaged and am quite active within my own range. But 10% starts to 
> mentally, emotionally "hurt."
> So I just don't get heroic in certain ways. I can't justify not wanting to do more---I 
> wonder if even saying "it hurts" makes me seem like a wuss.
> 
> But I've come to a point of reflection where I can not only accept my limits, but 
> affirm them. This applies also to some other roles in my life. I'm not going to go much 
> past what Vygotsky the Russian developmental psychologist calls the ZPD, the zone of 
> proximal development, the region where I can stretch a little, but not get overloaded. 
> (That's the aforementioned 5%)
> 
> Thanks for helping me look at this dynamic. I wonder if anyone else senses this 
> edge of when are certain issues "too much"
 and when do I want to address them. I also note 
> that the variable of "what precisely can I do" is a factor here. My angle is to promote 
> psychological literacy in my corner of the world, and on my website, etc.
> 
> warmly, Adam 
> 
> 
> Grouptalk mailing list
> List at grouptalkweb.org
> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org

    Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. Share now! 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.12/1202 - Release Date: 12/29/2007 1:27 PM

    Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out!

    Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out! Grouptalk mailing list
List at grouptalkweb.org
http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org

Barnett J. Weiss, MA, LCSW , 7410 Ridge Blvd 2D;Brooklyn, NY 11209 Cell (917)-751-3395   

Breathing is the foundation of life, and good breathing is the foundation of good health 
Improve your health by improving your breathing with the Buteyko Method. Call or write  me for details or appointments. 

_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://grouptalkweb.org/pipermail/list_grouptalkweb.org/attachments/20080101/434712a3/attachment.html 