moreno & perls

[Adam Blatner]

Some agreement with much of what Bud Weiss says, with slight modifications:
   1. Perls attended Moreno's open sessions on multiple occasions after immigrating from South Africa around 1946-1950. His development of Gestalt was also through the significant contributions of his wife, Laura Perls, and some other colleagues, such as Paul Goodman. This was all in New York. So he was never a "student" per se of Moreno. 
       Bud is correct about Fritz' taking empty chair technique as a major method, though his first book on Gestalt therapy didn't comment much on technique. 

   2. Bud's comment on how most books and articles don't mention Perls' debt to Moreno: "They don't dare I suppose for fear of being drowned in Moreno's ocean." seems to me to be a bit of an overestimate of Moreno's stature, which was precarious at best within the mainstream academic and clinical establishment throughout his life and since. 

  3. Bud: " I once asked Perls what this difficulty was between them especially as it played out in public at times.  Perls surprised me with his answer, though afterwards, I realized that it was once again, Perls in a more subtle way attempting to one-up Moreno. Perls said of Moreno that "Moreno simply could never accept his own Genius" implying as an underlying suposition that Perls could accept his own Genius.
        ab: good point. Though Perls was mistaken: Moreno actively asserted his own genius, and sublimated his narcissism just a bit by granting to everyone the capacity to be a genius insofar as they opened to their spontaneity and creativity.

    4. Re Berne's statement---I quote it in my Acting In (ever since 1973, the 1st edition). Bud's version here seems correct: BW: I certainly appreciate the contributions to therapy and thinking about therapy that Perls contributed, though in my estimation, they are miniscule in comparison to the ocean that Moreno supplied for all, which is inherent in the statement by Eric Berne. That statement of Berne's was extraordinary in its humbleness and at the time Berne made it, his work was far more well known due to the publication of the books about his work which were written to be and were best sellers on every book list for many many weeks. 

     5. AB: Here I'm less certain. Bud Weiss asserts: Virginia Satir along with one of the founders of the Family therapy movement, Don Jackson, wrote extensively of the debt they owed to Moreno as did Nathan Ackerman who founded the Ackerman Institute of New York City which has pioneered training in so many applications of the family therapy models and welcomed others.   AB: I have never seen any of these acknowledgments, and would be most appreciative of any references or citations. I rather doubt not only that they wrote extensively, but that they ever wrote it or had it officially recorded at all. I hope I'm mistaken. 

    6. BW: In a private conversation in 1968 that I had with Eric Berne in Vienna during the 4th Internatioinal Congress of Group Psychotherapy, he added that most of his own work also was derivative of Moreno's though Berne felt that his work and theoretical simplifications were far more accessable to the public than psychodrama and sociometry and therefore more useful.  ab: very interesting

Further comments: 
  John Matteson  (undilaraza) 5/15, wrote: From memory from Easlen,  Perls though, like Moreno seems to have thought, that he was a Christ-like figure with the power to save the world by making it a better place by his God-like skills.
         AB: this is hyperbole, excessive talk. Seems... is not good history, full assumption... 
     Christ-like and God-like is excessive. I went to a couple of Fritz' workshops and saw him on some other occasions, and he was indeed vain, imperious, charismatic, warm sometimes, rude sometimes... 

   JM: It would seems when two individuals with these kinds of egos meet something has to give. Perls worked in New York after he came from South Africa during the period he had problems getting licensed and the story was from Perls that Moreno copied him... 
  AB: Is there any documentation that Perls gave off this story, any documentation at all? I never heard it. Rather, I am aware that Fritz begrudgingly acknowledged Moreno's contributions.  Copy is too strong. Fritz and Laura did create some original ideas and approaches. They also integrated some elements from Moreno.

   ... JM: and for Moreno Perls copied him. (AB: I never heard the word "copy" in the psychodrama circles or from Moreno. Some elements, sure.)
    JM: ...  who knows.   
           AB:Well, on this, it's pretty clear. At one APA conference, I heard Perls say on a joint panel with Moreno something like, "Okay Jake, so you created the empty chair. Fine. Get over it."

    JM  Honestly, speaking Perls seem to have much more influence in modern psychotherapy than Moreno.
         ab: yes and no. Gestalt made a bigger impact in the 70s because it could be done 1-1 and in groups. Psychodrama as a method requires more time, is harder to use. Yet one can argue that in terms of the many contributions of Moreno in many ways, his influence--often unacknowledged or weakly so--- including all the ways role playing is used--- has been greater.

    JM  Moreno's work seems to be almost a religion which has historically occurred more than one when a child is a lynch pen of tradition.   AB: linch-pin is the spelling, and I'm not sure what is being said here. Certainly, that word "seems" is John's subjective and simplistic summary. I've met too many people with their own independent ideas, etc., to know that Moreno's work is just what it is, and while a few people may accept his authority with a bit more credulity than others, much of it stands on its own feed as plain good sense. (I'm talking about the basic ideas; his actual writing was a bit less clear, but, well, that's also just part of the story.)

      JM  Don't tell that the posting's over Zerka's birthday is anything but worship! 
      AB: This is a cheap shot. What is worship anyway, and as Ed Schreiber and others have noted, when is honoring a senior contributor appropriate? When does such honoring go "over the top"? So far, I've detected nothing excessive.
      I've heard Zerka criticized in some ways, and I'm aware of her criticizing herself, or acknowledging these. Nor do I find her demanding unconditional acceptance for her opinions. 

Later, John Matteson wrote: Just a thought; Does worshiping the past or projecting the need to worship into the future take away from dealing with the hear and now?  
   Adam: It's spelled here-and-now. Again with the worship? There is a difference between respect, or taking into consideration and worship.
      JM  If you look at Gestalt it is accepted as one of the really viable systems of  modern psychotherapy. Is that related to the fact that Gestaltists do not worship its founder. and that energy is invested in developing the therapy. Just a question? 
       ab: no, it is related to the the fact that it can be done 1-1 in the office, has a more complex yet accessible theoretical system, appeals to the draw into the present moment, and other factors.  The illusion the psychodrama is weakened because of your accusation of worship is misleading. There are other weaknesses in psychodrama, though, admittedly, and there are also people seeking to rectify these weaknesses.

     John M: If you want to worship, worship but do not complain about its killing affect/effect on psychodrama. 
     ab: We haven't established that there's worshiping going on. Maybe there are some people behaving in ways that you think of as worshiping, but there certainly are many more that are not. What, then are you talking about??

     JM:  I consider it a gift when I have an outsider tell me what I really look and sound like because it is a breath of truth that I never get from my friends and colleagues. I have no need to kill the messenger. 
     AB: Aha, is what you're saying that it SEEMS like this is worship? Can we look at that? Maybe the psychodramatist you met behaved this way.
      And I do take it not as a breath of truth, but that perhaps there needs to be more questioning of the authority of the first generation (i.e., JLMoreno)--- but there is in fact a good deal of such questioning. How is it that you haven't found it?
      (e.g., Have you ever read my Foundations of Psychodrama and the chapter that critiques Moreno?)

   AB continues: So, as Ed Schreiber writes: I think you are mixing worship with honoring - nothing at all wrong with honoring the past, present and future. 

                       Adam Blatner
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