moreno & perls

Wed May 16 22:37:05 CDT 2007

Yes, Leon was one of my early teachers. I got so much from a general interpersonal 
relationship-oriented weekend workshop he offered in the mid-1960s; it taught me how much 
can be done using action methods.
         Warmly, Adam

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "georgia rigg" <georgiaarigg at yahoo.com>
To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>; <list at grouptalkweb.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: moreno & perls


> Hi Adam, I read your contributions to this discussion
> with interest--I've been thinking about what my mentor
> and original psychodrama trainer, Leon J. Fine, Ph.D.,
> would say about all of this.  Lee was accomplished in
> Gestalt work, and gave many workshops in Gestalt.  I
> think, however, that Lee would be best remembered for
> his work as a psychodramatist, a most creative and
> innovative one at that.  Lee was always open to
> learning of all kinds--he is the person who introduced
> me to Al Pesso and psychomotor therapy.  I imagine him
> to be smiling a bit, twitching his moustache, and
> waiting for the next salvo.  Georgia Rigg
> --- Adam Blatner <adam at blatner.com> wrote:
>
>> Some agreement with much of what Bud Weiss says,
>> with slight modifications:
>>    1. Perls attended Moreno's open sessions on
>> multiple occasions after immigrating from South
>> Africa around 1946-1950. His development of Gestalt
>> was also through the significant contributions of
>> his wife, Laura Perls, and some other colleagues,
>> such as Paul Goodman. This was all in New York. So
>> he was never a "student" per se of Moreno.
>>        Bud is correct about Fritz' taking empty
>> chair technique as a major method, though his first
>> book on Gestalt therapy didn't comment much on
>> technique.
>>
>>    2. Bud's comment on how most books and articles
>> don't mention Perls' debt to Moreno: "They don't
>> dare I suppose for fear of being drowned in Moreno's
>> ocean." seems to me to be a bit of an overestimate
>> of Moreno's stature, which was precarious at best
>> within the mainstream academic and clinical
>> establishment throughout his life and since.
>>
>>   3. Bud: " I once asked Perls what this difficulty
>> was between them especially as it played out in
>> public at times.  Perls surprised me with his
>> answer, though afterwards, I realized that it was
>> once again, Perls in a more subtle way attempting to
>> one-up Moreno. Perls said of Moreno that "Moreno
>> simply could never accept his own Genius" implying
>> as an underlying suposition that Perls could accept
>> his own Genius.
>>         ab: good point. Though Perls was mistaken:
>> Moreno actively asserted his own genius, and
>> sublimated his narcissism just a bit by granting to
>> everyone the capacity to be a genius insofar as they
>> opened to their spontaneity and creativity.
>>
>>     4. Re Berne's statement---I quote it in my
>> Acting In (ever since 1973, the 1st edition). Bud's
>> version here seems correct: BW: I certainly
>> appreciate the contributions to therapy and thinking
>> about therapy that Perls contributed, though in my
>> estimation, they are miniscule in comparison to the
>> ocean that Moreno supplied for all, which is
>> inherent in the statement by Eric Berne. That
>> statement of Berne's was extraordinary in its
>> humbleness and at the time Berne made it, his work
>> was far more well known due to the publication of
>> the books about his work which were written to be
>> and were best sellers on every book list for many
>> many weeks.
>>
>>      5. AB: Here I'm less certain. Bud Weiss
>> asserts: Virginia Satir along with one of the
>> founders of the Family therapy movement, Don
>> Jackson, wrote extensively of the debt they owed to
>> Moreno as did Nathan Ackerman who founded the
>> Ackerman Institute of New York City which has
>> pioneered training in so many applications of the
>> family therapy models and welcomed others.   AB: I
>> have never seen any of these acknowledgments, and
>> would be most appreciative of any references or
>> citations. I rather doubt not only that they wrote
>> extensively, but that they ever wrote it or had it
>> officially recorded at all. I hope I'm mistaken.
>>
>>     6. BW: In a private conversation in 1968 that I
>> had with Eric Berne in Vienna during the 4th
>> Internatioinal Congress of Group Psychotherapy, he
>> added that most of his own work also was derivative
>> of Moreno's though Berne felt that his work and
>> theoretical simplifications were far more accessable
>> to the public than psychodrama and sociometry and
>> therefore more useful.  ab: very interesting
>>
>> Further comments:
>>   John Matteson  (undilaraza) 5/15, wrote: From
>> memory from Easlen,  Perls though, like Moreno seems
>> to have thought, that he was a Christ-like figure
>> with the power to save the world by making it a
>> better place by his God-like skills.
>>          AB: this is hyperbole, excessive talk.
>> Seems... is not good history, full assumption...
>>      Christ-like and God-like is excessive. I went
>> to a couple of Fritz' workshops and saw him on some
>> other occasions, and he was indeed vain, imperious,
>> charismatic, warm sometimes, rude sometimes...
>>
>>    JM: It would seems when two individuals with
>> these kinds of egos meet something has to give.
>> Perls worked in New York after he came from South
>> Africa during the period he had problems getting
>> licensed and the story was from Perls that Moreno
>> copied him...
>>   AB: Is there any documentation that Perls gave off
>> this story, any documentation at all? I never heard
>> it. Rather, I am aware that Fritz begrudgingly
>> acknowledged Moreno's contributions.  Copy is too
>> strong. Fritz and Laura did create some original
>> ideas and approaches. They also integrated some
>> elements from Moreno.
>>
>>    ... JM: and for Moreno Perls copied him. (AB: I
>> never heard the word "copy" in the psychodrama
>> circles or from Moreno. Some elements, sure.)
>>     JM: ...  who knows.
>>            AB:Well, on this, it's pretty clear. At
>> one APA conference, I heard Perls say on a joint
>> panel with Moreno something like, "Okay Jake, so you
>> created the empty chair. Fine. Get over it."
>>
>>     JM  Honestly, speaking Perls seem to have much
>> more influence in modern psychotherapy than Moreno.
>>          ab: yes and no. Gestalt made a bigger
>> impact in the 70s because it could be done 1-1 and
>> in groups. Psychodrama as a method requires more
>> time, is harder to use. Yet one can argue that in
>> terms of the many contributions of Moreno in many
>> ways, his influence--often unacknowledged or weakly
>> so--- including all the ways role playing is used---
>> has been greater.
>>
>>     JM  Moreno's work seems to be almost a religion
>> which has historically occurred more than one when a
>> child is a lynch pen of tradition.   AB: linch-pin
>> is the spelling, and I'm not sure what is being said
>> here. Certainly, that word "seems" is John's
>> subjective and simplistic summary. I've met too many
>> people with their own independent ideas, etc., to
>> know that Moreno's work is just what it is, and
>> while a few people may accept his authority with a
>> bit more credulity than others, much of it stands on
>> its own feed as plain good sense. (I'm talking about
>> the basic ideas; his actual writing was a bit less
>> clear, but, well, that's also just part of the
>> story.)
>>
>>       JM  Don't tell that the posting's over Zerka's
>> birthday is anything but worship!
>>       AB: This is a cheap shot. What is worship
>> anyway, and as Ed Schreiber and others have noted,
>> when is honoring a senior contributor appropriate?
>> When does such honoring go "over the top"? So far,
>> I've detected nothing excessive.
>>       I've heard Zerka criticized in some ways, and
>> I'm aware of her criticizing herself, or
>> acknowledging these. Nor do I find her demanding
>> unconditional acceptance for her opinions.
>>
>> Later, John Matteson wrote: Just a thought; Does
>> worshiping the past or projecting the need to
>> worship into the future take away from dealing with
>> the hear and now?
>>    Adam: It's spelled here-and-now. Again with the
>> worship? There is a difference between respect, or
>> taking into consideration and worship.
>>       JM  If you look at Gestalt it is accepted as
>> one of the really viable systems of  modern
>> psychotherapy. Is that related to the fact that
>> Gestaltists do not worship its founder. and that
>> energy is invested in developing the therapy. Just a
>> question?
>>        ab: no, it is related to the the fact that it
>> can be done 1-1 in the office, has a more complex
>> yet accessible theoretical system, appeals to the
>> draw into the present moment, and other factors.
>> The illusion the psychodrama is weakened because of
>> your accusation of worship is misleading. There are
>> other weaknesses in psychodrama, though, admittedly,
>> and there are also people seeking to rectify these
>> weaknesses.
>>
>>      John M: If you want to worship, worship but do
>> not complain about its killing affect/effect on
>> psychodrama.
>>      ab: We haven't established that there's
>> worshiping going on. Maybe there are some people
>> behaving in ways that you think of as worshiping,
>> but there certainly are many more that are not.
>> What, then are you talking about??
>>
>>      JM:  I consider it a gift when I have an
>> outsider tell me what I really look and sound like
>> because it is a breath of truth that I never get
>> from my friends and colleagues. I have no need to
>> kill the messenger.
>>      AB: Aha, is what you're saying that it SEEMS
>> like this is worship? Can we look at that? Maybe the
>> psychodramatist you met behaved this way.
>>       And I do take it not as a breath of truth, but
>> that perhaps there needs to be more questioning of
>> the authority of the first generation (i.e.,
>> JLMoreno)--- but there is in fact a good deal of
>> such questioning. How is it that you haven't found
>> it?
>>       (e.g., Have you ever read my Foundations of
>> Psychodrama and the chapter that critiques Moreno?)
>>
>>    AB continues: So, as Ed Schreiber writes: I think
>> you are mixing worship with honoring - nothing at
>> all wrong with honoring the past, present and
>> future.
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