aristotele2
Adam Blatner
adam at blatner.com
Tue May 29 18:14:23 CDT 2007
Ah, well, Anath, by mentioning a client who is "depressed" because of problems with status
and connection. I will confess a bias: I am growing ever more transpersonal, slightly
Buddhist-like, in recognizing (especially in having friends and family in the elder years)
that desire and attachments, and having one's sense of self-esteem and survive-ability
dependent on external features, such habits of mind and desire not infrequently come to a
point of crisis, because it is in the nature of things for certain kinds of success to
fade, crash, become obsolete, be edged out by others, etc.
Where then can we turn? You may be especially good for her because of your own
sensitivity to such matters.
As for it being negative aristotele, perhaps so. When we have felt good about our being
"with it" and then the situation changes, what then?
Perhaps the sociometric concept that might aid her is to re-think what friendship and
deep social connection might really be for her, and how it may differ from cordial
acquaintanceship and business connectedness.
Warmly, Adam
----- Original Message -----
From: "thana ag" <anathga at hotmail.com>
To: <adam at blatner.com>; <list at grouptalkweb.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:42 PM
Subject: RE: aristotele2
> Hi Adam,
> seems that the opposite would also apply:Recently a woman was referred to
> me.Depressed.Much of it due to ."diminished aristotele". She seems unable to access to
> top echelon
> of financial aristocracy due to certain circumstances., people who before were very
> responsive to her. Of course that affects her income possibilities,b/c in such circles
> who you know counts!!! (in $)i
> Depression was warded off temporarily, when she flew with some creative financial ideas
> to Europe ,where she met for lunches/dinners with few high ranking people in the EU
> financial world, connected through a friend who is still accessible to her.. Two
> lunches and dinners later,she felt better. She had a standing. She is still counted
> among the ones who belomg in certain circle by knowing certain people. Which meant being
> able to make certain deals . Her mood improved just by mentioning the pedigree of the
> names.... A week later -depression resumed full swing as no deals were forhthcoming...
> If there were some way to translate this concept into therapeutics?
> After all she did it intuitively,flew to Europe to mend her standing,and still derives a
> great deal of hope from having made those contacts...
> To challenge her belief system? The whole idea of being depersonalized by this very
> concept...
> In a society where your worth is judged by your "worth"...
> anath
>>From: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>
>>Reply-To: Adam Blatner <adam at blatner.com>
>>To: "CGayle" <cgayle at zipcon.com>
>>CC: list at grouptalkweb.org
>>Subject: aristotele2
>>Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:57:00 -0500
>>
>>Hi All, my understanding is that this kind of tele is more related to status. It's the
>>attraction to those whose status is heightened because of their relationships with folks
>>with even more status, popularity, celebrity. And to some extent, there may be also a
>>reciprocal element, as the folks near the center may enjoy the increased attention given
>>by those who seek to participate in the overall heightened status or popularity.
>> The power, such as it is, may not be formal authority so much as just the subtle
>> increase in status given to friends of the celebrity, associates of the king or boss,
>> members of the celebrity's entourage. These folks can ask for favors, announcements,
>> and they may be granted more readily.
>> It's the power of "connections," and the secret hope that by developing a
>> relationship with the associates of the highest status figures, that one may be
>> introduced, or be included at private parties, etc.
>>
>> As for Eric's point about Victor Jara. Interesting, because it may well be that
>> knowing him---whoever he is---in some circles is a real status point; in other circles,
>> though, that name might have no status or name recognition at all. So the dynamic
>> involves also the group considered. Since we play in many social circles, our status
>> may be high in one, may be average or distinctly low in others, for different criteria.
>>
>> So these questions thickened the understanding a little. I look forward to
>> further feedback. Warmly, adam
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: CGayle
>> To: list at grouptalkweb.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 1:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: aristotele
>>
>>
>> I thought Aristotele was not about who one knows but more about "the power behind the
>> throne". Perhaps like a secretary or administrator who is really running the affairs
>> of his boss. Or a queen who really runs the kingdom behind the figure head king.
>> Cynthia Gayle
>> Seattle
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: E L
>> To: list at grouptalkweb.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:29 AM
>> Subject: Eric Lindblom
>>
>>
>> Group
>>
>> I've dropped a name, Victor Jara.. Is that Aristotele? Just knowing about Victor
>> Jara enriches my life but does not make me any better a person than I am now. How about
>> that? In that way, does Aristotele work or not? I so, how? Eric
>>
>>
>> On 5/28/07, list-request at grouptalkweb.org <list-request at grouptalkweb.org > wrote:
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. aristotele (Adam Blatner)
>> 2. Chile (E L)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 14:41:14 -0500
>> From: "Adam Blatner" < adam at blatner.com>
>> Subject: aristotele
>> To: <johnf at earthlight.co.nz>
>> Cc: list at grouptalkweb.org
>> Message-ID: <002001c7a096$fd30a270$2e01a8c0 at desktop>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> Re Aristotele: A rich topic indeed: It hints at a variety of other permutations
>> and types
>> of tele, and the relevance of many of these dynamics in everyday life, sociology,
>> etc. For
>> instance: I might seek to be on good terms or known by or friends with X because
>> she is
>> tight with Y, who is an acknowledged leader or celebrity. That would keep me
>> closer to the
>> "in" group.
>> So when and in what situations might that dynamic become a problem? How
>> does
>> knowing about aristo-tele as a concept help understand or deal constructively
>> with this
>> dynamic if it were a problem, or threatening to become one?
>> What kinds of problems spin off from aristo-tele?
>> When might using this dynamic be politically shrewd? If I were
>> a
>> lobbyist? If I were a congressman with ambition, trying to build my profile in
>> Washington,
>> DC ? What might be some ways to do this that were indeed clever, and what
>> ways might
>> be counter-productive?
>> I'm just trying to warm up to the question, and evoke some associations
>> from
>> others reading this?
>> Warmly, Adam
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Farnsworth" <johnf at earthlight.co.nz>
>> To: < list at grouptalkweb.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 3:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: aristotele
>>
>>
>> > In response to Ann's very interesting question about aristotele (a term new to
>> me) it
>> > struck me, after some thought, that this is a very common phenomenon,
>> particularly in
>> > some circles.
>> >
>> > If I've understood her description correctly then one simple instance is in
>> > name-dropping. I have an acquaintance, for instance, who often lets me know of
>> the
>> > powerful, famous or influential people he knows. He does actually appear to
>> know some of
>> > them (so, it's more than an apparent connection). However, it also raises the
>> question
>> > of *how* he knows them, and I can only (very occasionally) assess this for
>> myself if I
>> > am in a position to observe a reciprocal interaction. Sometimes, for instance,
>> it's
>> > quite a deferential relationship. In other words, only then can I get a clearer
>> idea of
>> > their role relations.
>> >
>> > This is a very simple example but I hope it helps to generate more discussion.
>> >
>> > John Farnsworth
>> >
>> >> I wonder if we might have a discussion of aristotele here on
>> >> grouptalk. Specifically, I am thinking of a discussion of
>> >> sociometric status which is ascribed to a person due to their
>> >> connection, or apparent connection to another person who has a
>> >> higher or more stable sociometric status. I think the converse is
>> >> also true. (Guilt by association, for example) Sociometric
>> >> positions are rarely "fixed" and depend upon reciprocity, group
>> >> role repertoire, etc; however, there are some persons who become
>> >> fixed in their position until some event provides the opportunity
>> >> for persons to examine their sociometric choices on a new set of
>> >> criteria. What I hope could come from a discussion like this is a
>> >> clearer picture of de-personalization which seems to be present in
>> >> the aristotelic-based connection. Ann Hale
>> >
>> > Grouptalk mailing list
>> > List at grouptalkweb.org
>> > http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>> >
>> >
>> > --
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>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 14:01:02 -0700
>> From: "E L" < elindblom at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Chile
>> To: list at grouptalkweb.org
>> Message-ID:
>> < b89e47710705271401qa870114g620229b7cd88445 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Jorge
>>
>> I wanted to comment on the violence in Latin America you mention. My
>> experience is with Chile. I've found that even after twenty five years or
>> more that people don't want to talk much less to reverse roles. The pain
>> stretches the human being beyond the capacity to comprehend. (These people
>> are not in psychodrama.)
>>
>> My experience, specifically, is with the friends of the famous La Nueva
>> Cancion Chilena singer and Profesor Victor Jara who, in 1973, was arrested,
>> to_rtured and murdered by unknown agents of the state and found dumped with
>> forty-four bullets in his chest. I met many of his friends and talked with
>> them being very careful and considerate of the extreme post traumatic
>> syndrome present in them. (Please note that some of them are and/or were
>> members of La Izquierda: MIR and Manuel Rodriguez.)
>>
>> My own approach was to have a very light touch and to let them talk as much
>> or as little as they liked. (It was not therapy but conversation.) As well,
>> I reversed roles with them (not a good idea, perhaps) and felt that pain
>> thoroughly if not the actual experience. I will not and shall not recommend
>> this but I allowed myself to be stretched beyond the capacity to comprehend
>> then I wrote what I felt in a dissertation and a novel. Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> > >
>> > >" ...As far as I can understand correctly what you want to convey I agree
>> > with your point on role reversal: it is not even always indicated but
>> > sometimes impossible or even worse contra-indicated (up to the point that it
>> > could be considered in those cases as a serious professional fault). I am
>> > working a lot with trauma clients. In my experience it depends so much on
>> > the individual situation: the type of trauma, the fase of the treatment, the
>> > protective ressources because identification with the aggressor is always
>> > one of the core subjects for victims and role reversal may just reinforce
>> > this self-damaging tendency. In La Coruna Natacha and me were giving a
>> > conference and large group work on non-violent, peace building interventions
>> > in groups. In the discussion one woman from El Salvador stated that she was
>> > a former guerrillera but she was still unable after more than 10 years of
>> > therapy, self experience and becoming herself a helper for others to forgive
>> > their torturers or make the role reversal with them. She just commented by
>> > that one intervention we had explained which tries to reduce the
>> > de-humanization of the "other", the "enemy" and the spiral of
>> > destructiveness and revenge (but not by role reversal). This led to the very
>> > important discussion about our (us as therapists) own limitations to forgive
>> > and our own hidden search for revenge which we have to admit and to work on.
>> > >
>> > > All the best, regards
>> > >
>> > > Jorge"
>> > >
>> >
>> >
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