aristotele2
thana ag
anathga at hotmail.com
Tue May 29 21:57:07 CDT 2007
Dear Adam,
I have a similar bias,so listening to this is pretty depressing...
Interestingly,this woman has good social network, which i was trying to
utilize in a PD a deux -- the mood lifted a bit,but barely a dent......Thank
God it is not a one time shot...
I thought to mention this case,as it could be presented as " Depression in
reaction to to Shrinkage of Aristotele"...though of course there is more to
it,or behind it.
Thanks for your response.
warmly,anath
>From: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>
>Reply-To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>
>To: "thana ag" <anathga at hotmail.com>
>CC: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>Subject: Re: aristotele2
>Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 18:14:23 -0500
>
>Ah, well, Anath, by mentioning a client who is "depressed" because of
>problems with status and connection. I will confess a bias: I am growing
>ever more transpersonal, slightly Buddhist-like, in recognizing (especially
>in having friends and family in the elder years) that desire and
>attachments, and having one's sense of self-esteem and survive-ability
>dependent on external features, such habits of mind and desire not
>infrequently come to a point of crisis, because it is in the nature of
>things for certain kinds of success to fade, crash, become obsolete, be
>edged out by others, etc.
> Where then can we turn? You may be especially good for her because of
>your own sensitivity to such matters.
>
> As for it being negative aristotele, perhaps so. When we have felt good
>about our being "with it" and then the situation changes, what then?
> Perhaps the sociometric concept that might aid her is to re-think what
>friendship and deep social connection might really be for her, and how it
>may differ from cordial acquaintanceship and business connectedness.
>
>Warmly, Adam
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "thana ag" <anathga at hotmail.com>
>To: <adam at blatner.com>; <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:42 PM
>Subject: RE: aristotele2
>
>
>>Hi Adam,
>>seems that the opposite would also apply:Recently a woman was referred to
>>me.Depressed.Much of it due to ."diminished aristotele". She seems unable
>>to access to top echelon
>>of financial aristocracy due to certain circumstances., people who before
>>were very responsive to her. Of course that affects her income
>>possibilities,b/c in such circles who you know counts!!! (in $)i
>>Depression was warded off temporarily, when she flew with some creative
>>financial ideas to Europe ,where she met for lunches/dinners with few
>>high ranking people in the EU financial world, connected through a friend
>>who is still accessible to her.. Two lunches and dinners later,she felt
>>better. She had a standing. She is still counted among the ones who
>>belomg in certain circle by knowing certain people. Which meant being able
>>to make certain deals . Her mood improved just by mentioning the pedigree
>>of the names.... A week later -depression resumed full swing as no deals
>>were forhthcoming...
>>If there were some way to translate this concept into therapeutics?
>>After all she did it intuitively,flew to Europe to mend her standing,and
>>still derives a great deal of hope from having made those contacts...
>>To challenge her belief system? The whole idea of being depersonalized by
>>this very concept...
>>In a society where your worth is judged by your "worth"...
>>anath
>>>From: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>
>>>Reply-To: Adam Blatner <adam at blatner.com>
>>>To: "CGayle" <cgayle at zipcon.com>
>>>CC: list at grouptalkweb.org
>>>Subject: aristotele2
>>>Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:57:00 -0500
>>>
>>>Hi All, my understanding is that this kind of tele is more related to
>>>status. It's the attraction to those whose status is heightened because
>>>of their relationships with folks with even more status, popularity,
>>>celebrity. And to some extent, there may be also a reciprocal element, as
>>>the folks near the center may enjoy the increased attention given by
>>>those who seek to participate in the overall heightened status or
>>>popularity.
>>> The power, such as it is, may not be formal authority so much as
>>>just the subtle increase in status given to friends of the celebrity,
>>>associates of the king or boss, members of the celebrity's entourage.
>>>These folks can ask for favors, announcements, and they may be granted
>>>more readily.
>>> It's the power of "connections," and the secret hope that by
>>>developing a relationship with the associates of the highest status
>>>figures, that one may be introduced, or be included at private parties,
>>>etc.
>>>
>>> As for Eric's point about Victor Jara. Interesting, because it may
>>>well be that knowing him---whoever he is---in some circles is a real
>>>status point; in other circles, though, that name might have no status or
>>>name recognition at all. So the dynamic involves also the group
>>>considered. Since we play in many social circles, our status may be high
>>>in one, may be average or distinctly low in others, for different
>>>criteria.
>>>
>>> So these questions thickened the understanding a little. I look
>>>forward to further feedback. Warmly, adam
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: CGayle
>>> To: list at grouptalkweb.org
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 1:11 PM
>>> Subject: Re: aristotele
>>>
>>>
>>> I thought Aristotele was not about who one knows but more about "the
>>>power behind the throne". Perhaps like a secretary or administrator who
>>>is really running the affairs of his boss. Or a queen who really runs the
>>>kingdom behind the figure head king.
>>> Cynthia Gayle
>>> Seattle
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: E L
>>> To: list at grouptalkweb.org
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:29 AM
>>> Subject: Eric Lindblom
>>>
>>>
>>> Group
>>>
>>> I've dropped a name, Victor Jara.. Is that Aristotele? Just knowing
>>>about Victor Jara enriches my life but does not make me any better a
>>>person than I am now. How about that? In that way, does Aristotele work
>>>or not? I so, how? Eric
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/28/07, list-request at grouptalkweb.org
>>><list-request at grouptalkweb.org > wrote:
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>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. aristotele (Adam Blatner)
>>> 2. Chile (E L)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 14:41:14 -0500
>>> From: "Adam Blatner" < adam at blatner.com>
>>> Subject: aristotele
>>> To: <johnf at earthlight.co.nz>
>>> Cc: list at grouptalkweb.org
>>> Message-ID: <002001c7a096$fd30a270$2e01a8c0 at desktop>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>> reply-type=original
>>>
>>> Re Aristotele: A rich topic indeed: It hints at a variety of other
>>>permutations and types
>>> of tele, and the relevance of many of these dynamics in everyday
>>>life, sociology, etc. For
>>> instance: I might seek to be on good terms or known by or friends
>>>with X because she is
>>> tight with Y, who is an acknowledged leader or celebrity. That
>>>would keep me closer to the
>>> "in" group.
>>> So when and in what situations might that dynamic become a
>>>problem? How does
>>> knowing about aristo-tele as a concept help understand or deal
>>>constructively with this
>>> dynamic if it were a problem, or threatening to become one?
>>> What kinds of problems spin off from aristo-tele?
>>> When might using this dynamic be politically
>>>shrewd? If I were a
>>> lobbyist? If I were a congressman with ambition, trying to build
>>>my profile in Washington,
>>> DC ? What might be some ways to do this that were indeed
>>>clever, and what ways might
>>> be counter-productive?
>>> I'm just trying to warm up to the question, and evoke some
>>>associations from
>>> others reading this?
>>> Warmly, Adam
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "John Farnsworth" <johnf at earthlight.co.nz>
>>> To: < list at grouptalkweb.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 3:55 PM
>>> Subject: Re: aristotele
>>>
>>>
>>> > In response to Ann's very interesting question about aristotele
>>>(a term new to me) it
>>> > struck me, after some thought, that this is a very common
>>>phenomenon, particularly in
>>> > some circles.
>>> >
>>> > If I've understood her description correctly then one simple
>>>instance is in
>>> > name-dropping. I have an acquaintance, for instance, who often
>>>lets me know of the
>>> > powerful, famous or influential people he knows. He does
>>>actually appear to know some of
>>> > them (so, it's more than an apparent connection). However, it
>>>also raises the question
>>> > of *how* he knows them, and I can only (very occasionally)
>>>assess this for myself if I
>>> > am in a position to observe a reciprocal interaction. Sometimes,
>>>for instance, it's
>>> > quite a deferential relationship. In other words, only then can
>>>I get a clearer idea of
>>> > their role relations.
>>> >
>>> > This is a very simple example but I hope it helps to generate
>>>more discussion.
>>> >
>>> > John Farnsworth
>>> >
>>> >> I wonder if we might have a discussion of aristotele here on
>>> >> grouptalk. Specifically, I am thinking of a discussion of
>>> >> sociometric status which is ascribed to a person due to their
>>> >> connection, or apparent connection to another person who has a
>>> >> higher or more stable sociometric status. I think the converse
>>>is
>>> >> also true. (Guilt by association, for example) Sociometric
>>> >> positions are rarely "fixed" and depend upon reciprocity, group
>>> >> role repertoire, etc; however, there are some persons who
>>>become
>>> >> fixed in their position until some event provides the
>>>opportunity
>>> >> for persons to examine their sociometric choices on a new set
>>>of
>>> >> criteria. What I hope could come from a discussion like this
>>>is a
>>> >> clearer picture of de-personalization which seems to be present
>>>in
>>> >> the aristotelic-based connection. Ann Hale
>>> >
>>> > Grouptalk mailing list
>>> > List at grouptalkweb.org
>>> > http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.0/819 - Release Date:
>>>5/26/2007 10:47 AM
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 14:01:02 -0700
>>> From: "E L" < elindblom at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Chile
>>> To: list at grouptalkweb.org
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <
>>>b89e47710705271401qa870114g620229b7cd88445 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> Jorge
>>>
>>> I wanted to comment on the violence in Latin America you mention.
>>>My
>>> experience is with Chile. I've found that even after twenty five
>>>years or
>>> more that people don't want to talk much less to reverse roles.
>>>The pain
>>> stretches the human being beyond the capacity to comprehend.
>>>(These people
>>> are not in psychodrama.)
>>>
>>> My experience, specifically, is with the friends of the famous La
>>>Nueva
>>> Cancion Chilena singer and Profesor Victor Jara who, in 1973, was
>>>arrested,
>>> to_rtured and murdered by unknown agents of the state and found
>>>dumped with
>>> forty-four bullets in his chest. I met many of his friends and
>>>talked with
>>> them being very careful and considerate of the extreme post
>>>traumatic
>>> syndrome present in them. (Please note that some of them are
>>>and/or were
>>> members of La Izquierda: MIR and Manuel Rodriguez.)
>>>
>>> My own approach was to have a very light touch and to let them
>>>talk as much
>>> or as little as they liked. (It was not therapy but conversation.)
>>>As well,
>>> I reversed roles with them (not a good idea, perhaps) and felt
>>>that pain
>>> thoroughly if not the actual experience. I will not and shall not
>>>recommend
>>> this but I allowed myself to be stretched beyond the capacity to
>>>comprehend
>>> then I wrote what I felt in a dissertation and a novel. Eric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > >
>>> > >" ...As far as I can understand correctly what you want to
>>>convey I agree
>>> > with your point on role reversal: it is not even always
>>>indicated but
>>> > sometimes impossible or even worse contra-indicated (up to the
>>>point that it
>>> > could be considered in those cases as a serious professional
>>>fault). I am
>>> > working a lot with trauma clients. In my experience it depends
>>>so much on
>>> > the individual situation: the type of trauma, the fase of the
>>>treatment, the
>>> > protective ressources because identification with the aggressor
>>>is always
>>> > one of the core subjects for victims and role reversal may just
>>>reinforce
>>> > this self-damaging tendency. In La Coruna Natacha and me were
>>>giving a
>>> > conference and large group work on non-violent, peace building
>>>interventions
>>> > in groups. In the discussion one woman from El Salvador stated
>>>that she was
>>> > a former guerrillera but she was still unable after more than 10
>>>years of
>>> > therapy, self experience and becoming herself a helper for
>>>others to forgive
>>> > their torturers or make the role reversal with them. She just
>>>commented by
>>> > that one intervention we had explained which tries to reduce the
>>> > de-humanization of the "other", the "enemy" and the spiral of
>>> > destructiveness and revenge (but not by role reversal). This led
>>>to the very
>>> > important discussion about our (us as therapists) own
>>>limitations to forgive
>>> > and our own hidden search for revenge which we have to admit and
>>>to work on.
>>> > >
>>> > > All the best, regards
>>> > >
>>> > > Jorge"
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
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