judgment and other words

Fri Apr 4 17:40:29 CDT 2008

Hi Connie, That seems reasonable in many ways. In general, I am wary about using words in general. I try to find specific applications and examples. (Is this thinking like a lawyer? ( ;-)  
        I'm also reminded of Zerka's article some decades ago about righteous indignation, justifiable anger, and wonder where that feeling fits in. 

  Thanks for playing with us. Warmly, adam
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Connie Miller 
  To: Adam Blatner 
  Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 1:17 PM
  Subject: Re: judgment and other words

  Dear Ivo and Adam,  

  I prefer to use the word acceptance as opposed to judgement.  As healers, if we are all about connection and belonging, then it would seem to me that the word judgement implies separation from others as well as ourselves which can create suffering for ourselves and others.  Every time we separate ourselves from others the ego becomes more invested. Morenos work is about us all being interconnected.

   To me, discernment implies choice.If I use the word discernment as opposed to judgement, then I can either accept or enjoy what others do or don't do. If I don't enjoy it then we can leave or choose to accept the situation if I can't.
  I can then take responsibility for myactions by my state of consciousness and my inner acceptace which  brings about a greater state of peace and unification and therefore is active and creative.
  Just my thought=thanks for yours

  Connie
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Adam Blatner [mailto:ablatner at verizon.net]
  Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2008 10:40 AM
  To: 'Ivo Banaco'
  Cc: list at grouptalkweb.org
  Subject: judgment and other words

        I've been thinking about words, generalities, 
             Judgment.   It's a great virtue. Professionals need great judgment in order to practice. What one learns over the years is good judgment.
                      It's a terrible vice. Don't be judgmental.

           Ivo suggests a mixing of emotional intensity and discernment... that spoils it. I sense a measure of truth to what he's getting at, but it's still a clumsy word and we should not treat that word as if any of us knew what the other really means.
                It's a fuzzy word. At what point does discernment slide into being wisely or foolishly judgmental?
                   Can discernment also be foolish?

             For me, I tend to judge how well words are being used, or how perhaps misleadingly. I'm sensitive to semantics, and was very influenced by readings in this sub-field as a young person. I think that it is a core element for critical thinking and it should be taught in school.
             It's subversive, though, because it readily shows how many of the statements made in textbooks---and even more of what politicians and advertisers say---reflects rhetoricall appeals to illusion and non-rational motives---i.e., misleading propaganda for this or that hidden cause. 

            Right now I'm working on an essay that suggests that the word "reality" inhibits the creative process! 
                        Warmly, Adam
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Ivo Banaco 
          To: Adam Blatner 
          Cc: Peter Howie ; list at grouptalkweb.org 
          Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 5:53 AM
          Subject: Re: psychosocial development

          Adam,

          I think it's virtually impossible not to judge, in a wide sense that you describe. That's why I think it's useful to use the judgment/discernment distinction. The first is some type of emotional discharge that indicates that something could in fact be wrong with the object of judgment but also with the person who judge. Like those extreme cases of witch-hunt (for example for societies McCarthism, which existed during the era of senator Joe McCarthy - could he possible had communist thoughts to, who don't! - or in individual aspects like pedophile hunters, who we found out later that some happen to be pedophile themselves). That's why I use such a extreme statement in those cases "when we judge others we are exactly what we judge – it is an astonishing psycho-mathematical process." 

          Discernment, in my understanding, is in fact also an evaluation of some exterior (or interior) object, but by some possible definition it is more clear, less touched by emotional aspects (although, of course they are there). It simply don't bother us like in a judgemental effort. It doesn't mean that discernment is a passive statement; on the contrary it is a clearer or a more balanced our conscious judgment if you will.

          For example, all the examples you gave that you considered to be judgments I would call them discernments.

          Ivo

          On 4/2/08, Adam Blatner <ablatner at verizon.net> wrote: 
            Hi Ivo, thanks for your support, and I agree with some of your ideas, but I can't let the following go by: 

               I think it's Ivo saying: "...when we judge others we are exactly what we judge – it is an astonishing psycho-mathematical process."
                     AB: This strikes me as probably mistaken, though I may be mistaken (ha ha).
                1. I judge people for smoking around me, I find them inconsiderate of the smells they're making me smell.
                2. I judge people for playing very loud music, I find this a bit insensitive in some settings. It is not insensitive in settings in which most of the audience is there because the music is loud---then they are responding to the needs of those attending, and if I don't like it, it's okay that I leave. 
                3. I judge people for being in a role in which communications skills are needed---such as a telemarketer--- and they speak with such a thick dialect or mumble that I cannot understand them. I think that is mainly the fault of those who hire them, though. There's a slight judgment for people who seem to have no recognition that their speech habits may be inadequate for the job. 

                    ... and so forth. So how is this... what Ivo says...      So if we judge acts or persons for being irrational, deeply we know that we too could act or do in the same way. But it is important to distinguish judgments from discernment. Ideally every psychotherapists should make discernment's about their clients…not judgments…(I will really appreciate if someone could develop more this point…) 

                       or am I not clear on what it is that distinguishes judgment from discernment? Please offer clearer criteria. 

               Warmly, Adam

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