foray

Tue Jul 15 22:22:30 CDT 2008

Anna,
I'm so glad that you have "chimed in".  Linda Condon

--- On Tue, 7/15/08, Anna Schaum <anna at annaschaum.com> wrote:

From: Anna Schaum <anna at annaschaum.com>
Subject: foray
To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>
Cc: list at grouptalkweb.org
Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 3:32 PM

I hope misuse of language isn't one of the big turn offs/shutters down. I meant this is my first foray into group talk.

Adam, Ann, Ananth, etc.,

This is my first fore' into group talk, though I have been reading threads since I signed up after April's conference.

One "subtle oppression" it seems to me is the perceived lack of receptivity I feel when I post to any list serve and get no responses, when I assume at least X number are reading my post. On line particularly it is easy to read non-receptivity into that feedback loop. Then again, I can rationalize by telling myself that like me, people are busy and overwhelmed with the masses of loops they may/may not be receptive to, and a lack of response is not necessarily a reasonable cause for me to shut down. But in a case where there is not even one response I have to do a lot of self motivating to keep my internal thread alive.

I recently tested this in my community. We have a list serve here in Oregon for the American Mental Health Alliance-OR, "a non-profit member owned corporation of mental health professionals committed to the necessity for privacy, confidentiality and integrity in mental health services". The list serve gets used for a myriad of purposes, most often referral queries and  "getting the word out" about professional offerings, and is open to and used "ecumenically" by folks of all therapeutic perspectives and credentialing levels (the minimum is a MA working towards a state licensure). 

Last spring there was an issue being addressed in the Oregon legislature by Licensed Professional Counselors who, due to a language loophole and insurance company pressures, do not share parity with LCSWs, PhDs, Nurse Practitoners  for payment of services, even though our training and credentialing process is more stringent than some of the NP's and LCSWs'. Curiously, even though this was big news in the papers and other publications for weeks, there was not a peep on the AMHA listserve about it. Presumably because in that conserve we're meant to be working towards integrity in mental health services, but when it comes to who gets paid and who doesn't people tend to go into their look-out -for #-one stance (entitlement/privilege), and get quiet. On the OPA (Oregon Psychological Association) list serve at the same time there was out right lynch mobbing going on by some psychologists who eventually hired lobbyists to kill the bill. Their stance was that
 LPC's are not qualified to serve the public, etc. etc., even though the facts are clearly in the LPC's favor. It is hard to believe it is not about $.

Anyhow, one night I sat down at the computer and just put it out there to my AMHA colleagues, some of whom I knew in person, most of whom only knew me on the internet: "Hey , it's been awfully quiet around here about this legislation issue. How do people feel? How do you psychologists who are on both listserves feel about me, an LPC?" At the time I was considering spending a big chunk of money to fully join AMHA, and wanted to know exactly whom I would be joining? Were these folks going to be receptive and demonstrate inclusiveness and "integrity," or would they want to shut me down?

The response I got was receptive by the people who replied, and approximately five did ( I believe there are over 75 on the list). One reply was that my question was "brave and refreshing," another explained in detail the long history of this fight in Oregon, another was an explanation of why she does not refer to LPCs (insurance issues), another by a board member/co-founder that there are competent therapists who are licensed and who are not, whether PhD, MA, etc, and that she supports the passing of the parity bill. In this instance there was enough receptivity in the feedback that I decided to join the guild, becoming part of what the AMHA conserve stands for. It felt like a professional risk for sure to ask the qusetion, and I am glad that there was enough support. I still wonder however about the other 70 unvoiced responses. How many who did not respond did so out of subtle oppression, and how many were just not interested or too busy or have ADD
 like me to reply. This seems to be a topic for much further inquiry, the "Sociometry of the Internet." Is anyone already onto that?

So, back to the present...... how do you all feel about a CP candidate chiming in on this list serve? I don't really know whether I'm entitled or at the edge to be participating or not, according to the group talk conserve? I don't even know how many of you will get this far in the copy. It would be interesting if, even if you don't provide a written response, that you press "REPLY/SEND" so I have a count of how many actually read through this whole anecdote.

Very best,

Anna Schaum, MA, LPC
Portland, OR
Just turned in my CP application!

On Jul 11, 2008, at 6:55 PM, Adam Blatner wrote:

fun thought. Its reciprocal: What could someone say that would turn me off?
        I have been turned off by people overtly attacking me, calling me names, presuming to attribute their fantasies as my motivations, uncivil language...
               But there are degrees of turn-off
        It's more intriguing if I do answer something that's provocative and see how the other person responds
                    Sometimes they irrationally escalate
                         Sometimes they may pause and inquire as to what my objections are about

             So there's a bit of how many times over the net (ping-pong metaphor) the ball goes...

                      As to a position or saying something that's not well received... what might that be?

            Stuff that's outside of our arena for discussion, such as
                  Advertising tooth paste   
                      or content on the border of the boundaries..

                More problematic is the lack of any awareness that one is at the edge, no apologies, no questioning of the entitlement..

                        But even then, in general my own tendency is simply to inquire further and see how they answer...

        I'll be interested to see how others answer Anath's question of what content would draw our rejection...

       Warmly, adam

----- Original Message -----
From: thana ag
To: REGINA SEWELL ; list at grouptalkweb.org
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 8:00 PM
Subject: RE: Subtle oppression

Adam,Ann,Regina,
Hmmm. Very interesting.
I just wonder how many on this  list serve feel oppressed by their  perception that  what they have  to say will be totally off according to the perceived expectations of what is acceptable. for these  discussions.  Would one of these presumably oppressed speak up,and help us "walk the talk"? How will we respond?!

anath

From: sewell.2 at osu.edu
To: list at grouptalkweb.org
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:33:54 -0400
Subject: Subtle oppression
CC: ablatner at verizon.net

Adam, Ann

Hmmmm.... Interesting.  

I tend to look at oppression and privilege as together...as connected dynamics....  you can't have oppression without some other body getting privilege...  even if they don't want that privilege...  Like, I get privilege by dent of being white and middle class even though I spend a lot of energy fighting to redistribute resources in a more egalitarian manner.... So this brings up an interesting group effect....  seeing the collective oppressing the individual.... oppressing individuality.... especially 1 and 3...    sort of like the Borg on Star Trek New Generation....  (they were a culture where conformity was mandatory.. all cogs in the social machine... happy cogs once they lost their individuality....  the words I remember  most... "Resistance [to becoming one of the cogs] is futile... very much like Moreno's ideas of Robotrons....  But who benefits?  The stability of the group... the "borg ness"?
          1. I can't understand what the other person is saying because s/he is speaking too fast, too softly, with too much of an accent or dialect, using too big or unfamiliar terms or vocabulary, and so forth. In trying to bring up the problem of understand-ability, I've at times been met with blame.
           2. Someone takes offense to what I say, which then makes it difficult in that escalated emotional context to seek clarification and make amends. Explanations are often perceived as trying to avoid responsibility when in fact they are seeking to find a way to work out the miscommunication.
           3. Feeling one has a minority opinion when the group is perceived to have a certain bias. (Example: In one group many years ago a protagonist was complaining about a vague memory of possible sexual abuse---this was when this complaint was seen as always to be believed. I asked, "Well, there seems to be some question whether this event actually happened." Caught a lot of flack.)

I like Ann's application of the cannon of creativity and impact of sociometry on challenging that  "borgness"  ... it seems to me that this is the heart of social movements....  those lone deviants who first step forward and say, consciously or not, I won't take these social rules and defying them... perhaps paying the price of being shut down or rejected..., perhaps getting social applause..., 

So the trick becomes creating groups or moving towards situations in groups on one hand and on another, finding ways to communicate in a way that others can "hear."

peace,

regina sewell, Ph.D.

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Anna Schaum, MA, LPC
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