Role Reversal & Personality Development Ala Moreno

Fri Mar 28 13:40:27 CDT 2008

I apologize for jumping in now having missed some of the earlier exchanges some of which are below. 
  Moreno propsed a clear model of the personality developing through role development which exists in at least role diads always. You can't have a parent role without a child role so to speak and vice versa. Natrally their are at least three different role pairs there, mother and child, father and child, Mother and father. and the triad of mother father and child and on and on. Of course this is in a more typical circumstance, the child is a part of and witnesses all of these. Given the fact that all children in every society whether they actually have a mother and father present, see and witness somewhere in their community families with these in place. Of course biologically they come to understand that there is a necessity of both at some point.   One could break them down further into an essence like giver and receiver, taker and loser etc.  
  Children spontaeniously play at these roles in their attempt to master them. Of course one of the things that we do in psychodrama which is over all called spontaenity training is role training to give a wider range of responses for different or similar situations. 

  As far as how early on someone is able to utilze those role learnings, it would seem to be based on their exposure and the safety of the circumstances in which the child is able to experiment with the role playing. They witness and experience it for a long time prior to being able to put these roles and especially opposing role sides into action.

  I remember distinctly at age 5 at most, mothering my mother when she was so very depressed after my father killed himself to end the horrible medical suffering that he was enduring with a terminal diagnosis while also spending down the families financial resources as they had no insurance at that time. I actually went over to her and began to sing a lulaby that she sang to me regularly and it so got to her that she broke out of her doldrums. 

  I also remember my Uncle Max who, with his thick Yiddish accent, somehow made the world seem safe to me and got me to come out of my room when my father died when no one else could. That was a dramatic piece in my first psychodrama and afterwards, everyone wanted to come and sit in my Uncle Max's lap and be acknowledged by him. That was such a powerful role learning for me from childhood and it was cemented further during that sharing session after my first psychodrama. 

  Of course, in terms of comforting my mother,  I had the role diad of being on the receiving side of that soothing tune many times prior to my mother becoming so down subsequent to my father having killed himself. She often told that story as she realized that she was feeling so sorry for herself and in a real sense had abandoned me emotionally for that brief period. 
  I simply recall wanting to stop her from crying or seeming so sad. I was alone with her and didn't know what to do so I went over and hugged her and sang.  
  In terms of the singing in addition to the experience of her lulaby and listening to my nanny sing to herself which appeared to sooth her, singing for an effect was something that I had been doing even before I was 2 years old.  My sister, quite a performer herself, used to have me singing the hit parade songs of the time to show me off to her teenage friends. I don't remember doing that and my sister and some of her friends often tell the story of enjoying watching this little todler go at it. 
  Thus, I had been prompted over and over to be an entertainer interacting with the audiance. I witnessed them becoming excited and joyful as I sang. My mother being so sad and moody was a kind of opportunity to apply that earlier learning both for her and for me as doing so appeared to solve my problem of having no one to be with me while she was so out of it so to speak. 
  NOW FOR SOME COMPARISONS TO FAMILY CONSTELLATION AND IT'S RELEVENCE TO ROLE TRAINING AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE PERSONALITY AND SPONTANEITY. 
  I note that people in Family Constellation work do not have to be trained to perform amazingly as auxilliaries in the constellations in which they are asked to participate by the subject without much information at all. In fact, the subject (protagonist if you will)  is often prompted not to give too much information and to just basically sketch out the problem and then the action is begun with them choosing a person to represent them from those in the group.  Then they will choose whatever number of persons from the group are neccessary to begin the action according to what the director feels is needed. 

  The action is nearly all in what we might call a mirror presentation until the very end when the subject is brought in by the director to either repeat or complete a critical ending sequence just done by the representative for the subject. 

  The persons chosen to be in the action are placed gingerly by the subject in relationship to the person representing the subject and then the action begins with a general direction from the Director to do nothing until you really feel something. 

  After a brief interval, whether there is any movement or not, the director goes over and briefly interviews each of the persons in the action to find out what is going on with them. Then the director may suggest something to the actors or bring someone else in to play another part and place them accordingly.  The subject remains sitting next to the director's chair and remains outside of the action. The subject is rarely consulted after that except for some possible critical moments need for clarification for the director to continue productively. 

  In fact, the subject does not get into the action until they are brought in towards the end often when their substitute has already had a significant emotional response themselve. Of course this most always produces a highly emotional response in the subject who is watching the constellation unfold. One of the most important tools are the directed sentences that the Director has the participants say at critical times to complete a sequence and interaction. 

  All of this depends on the fact that we have all witnessed and been involed in multiple role diads and triads throughout our lives which have called forth many emotions.  In the process, everyone becomes more and more aware of the nature of the particular role diad and space they occupy and often have as significant Catharsis and learnings as does the subject. 
  No typical sharing is done after the action other than a go around to check on whether people have adequately disroled and are once again available to participate fully in the next subject's constellation or their own.  They are also encouraged not to share what has happened with anyone outside of the group and not to talk to the subject afterwads about their experience or to ask them questions. What has happened on many levels is that internal images and voicings and thoughts have been shifted significantly. The feeling is to let them perculate rather than getting into a lot of rationalizations and in effect to dilute the experience's chance to work on that internal state which has produced the lack of spontaenaity in the subjects life leading to no adequate solutions or directions for "productive " change or resolution in their lives. 

  As I have said before, I am working at combining the processes and theoretical base for both the work developed around Moreno that developed around Hellinger. Much is to be learned for both from both. 
  Blessings, Bud Weiss
Peter Howie <peterhowie at macquariehouse.com.au> wrote:
  Ah Adam,

A Friday morning (Brisbane time) diversion from the other work.

Let's use adequacy rather than 'perfectly'. 

Some people, according to Karen Horney, cope by moving towards others. Some of course move away and some move against according to her theory. I have noticed that those that cope by moving towards can be very very highly attuned to another person and can role reveres with great alacrity. However they are incapable of integrating that capacity with their own needs apart from an orientation to safety which usually means going along with the other person. 

However I can also get with your scalar measure - I think that is the term - or maybe it is the other one which I have forgotten - maybe ordinal v nominal? And from a role theory point of view when a person is warmed up to a group of roles or say a psychodramatic role and and the role around that expression - then that role usually has a distinct world view all its own - and in that role a person, despite years of training, may be incapable of role reversal. So a person's capacity to role reverse is contextual - often it is easier for instance to reverse roles with a stranger than say Mum or Dad or that bastard teacher! Though you idea that the capacity grows would presumably cross into other areas.

I think the capacity we are discussing here also includes the spontaneity factor of entering into fantasy and returning to reality. Role reversal is an act of creativity and it is imaginal and largely a fantasy creating process or with people we know well - a fantasy recognition process - where we recognise the fantasies we have of others. For instance if I role reverse with you a large amount if not all of it is a fantasy that I have about you. And a large part of the profundity of role reversal is this aspect of getting to know what I think/feel about you, what I think/feel you think/feel about me and getting to see this, because it is concretised and mirrored.

The other aspect of this model is noticing when a client or trainee is, during their work, in one or other of these stages. For instance confidence fading, energy going down can often indicate the stage of a double and hence doubling is valuable. The stage may only last a moment but it could indicate some form of doubling rather than mirroring or role reversal (which includes mirroring)

Cheers and now for the other work

Peter in Brisbane

At 12:43 AM 28/03/2008, Adam Blatner wrote:
  The key issue lies in words like "fully" capable... 
     One might argue that a psychodramatist with 20 years experience, plus, let's say this person has really "lived" psychodrama, incorporated depth psychology, worked on herself, practiced role reversing a lot in life--- that such a person might be able to role reverse with, oh, let's give it a number---84% accuracy. Let's say "fully" or perfectly is 100% accurate and is in fact an asymptotic limit---like the speed of light, or perfection, cannot in ordinary ways be attained. 
       Then let's say a psychodramatist who has been doing this for 10 years may be 73% accurate,  an ordinary non-role-reversing person who has just learned the technique, a mature adult, 63%,  an 18 year old, bright, trying it out, 50%     a  13 year-old,  35%    a 7 year old, 14%... and so forth. 
        There's no doubt that toddlers and infants feel empathically---it's built into the mirror neuron system--- and something as obvious as distress or pain can evoke a sense of sympathy, awww, give you my blanket or dolly and you'll feel better, pat on the shoulder... 

           So the theme of empathy development may potentially continue to develop throughout life.
  (I notice that I'm more sensitive and more accurate in appreciating other points of view in proportion to my experience and reflection on that experience.)

Rebecca comments on Ed's reminding us about Zerka's book and its chapter:  I was looking for that and couldn't remember where I had seen it. Zerka doesn't mention mirroring in this chart, though. I have always liked the idea that first one needs to experience being adequately doubled before being able to accept being mirrored.

It has occurred to me that there is something simple and elegant about the idea that first comes doubling, then mirroring and then role reversal. It is true of  adequate parenting of the infant, it is true of the child's own development, and it is true of the therapeutic relationship. Probably true of romantic relationships, too!  

      AB: Mirroring is another function--- step outside of yourself and imagine how others see you. I comment on this in my paper on "performance awareness"--developmental functions---    http://www.interactiveimprov.com/performdevlp.html    

         If this is so, some kids may develop some mirroring capacity without having been doubled..  but again, there may be that need for doubling for the mirroring to be more mature, filtered through a more complex process of reality testing, neocortex integration, 
       And again, I wonder if we might argue that a 20 year old's capacity to mirror may be less than a 50 year old who has been reflective and perhaps actively practiced the technique.. 

         Warmly, Adam

   ----- Original Message ----- 

   From: HV Psychodrama 

   To: list at grouptalkweb.org 

   Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:10 AM

   Subject: Moreno's Developmental Theory

   I wonder if anyone would be interested in a discussion about Moreno's developmental theory. There is an article in psychodrama, Volume 1 that has a lot of information on this. Are there others?

   People have asked at what age children can role reverse? I see that six year olds can do this. But what about the eighteen month old who gives his blanket to his Mom when she is crying (is that role reversing,  is the baby doubling the mother or is the baby just imitating what this Mom does when the baby is upset?). Or the one year old who offers a pacifier to a sobbing friend. (or maybe that was just trying to shut the other baby up!) 

   I am curious to know when people think children are fully capable of role reversing. I realize it is an individual thing, but in general.

   Hudson Valley Psychodrama Institute

   68 DuBois Road  

   New Paltz, NY 12561

   Ph: (845) 255 7502  

   E-mail: hvpi at hvc.rr.com

   Visit us at our website: http://www.hvpi.net

---------------------------------

   Grouptalk mailing list

   List at grouptalkweb.org

   http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org

---------------------------------

   No virus found in this incoming message.

   Checked by AVG. 

   Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1345 - Release Date: 3/26/2008 6:50 PM

Grouptalk mailing list
List at grouptalkweb.org
http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org Grouptalk mailing list
List at grouptalkweb.org
http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org

Barnett J. Weiss, MA, LCSW , 7410 Ridge Blvd 2D;Brooklyn, NY 11209 Cell (917)-751-3395 

Breathing is the foundation of life, and good breathing is the foundation of good health 
Improve your health by improving your breathing with the Buteyko Method. Call or write
  me for details or appointments. 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://grouptalkweb.org/pipermail/list_grouptalkweb.org/attachments/20080328/421b60b9/attachment.html 