Let's look at the more complete picture!

National Psychodrama Training Center nptc at snet.net
Fri Nov 14 21:57:41 UTC 2014

A comment regarding Moreno and his vision of humankind
as a social and organic unity. 
The organic nature of society is not a new idea
with Moreno. One earlier proponent of the idea was Charles Horton Cooley, one
of the few people, along with Henri Bergson, John Dewey, and Charles Pierce, to
whom Moreno gave credit for guiding his own thinking about society. 
Here are a couple of paragraphs from Cooley’s 1918
book, Social Process:
There has been much discussion regarding the use
of such words as "organic," "organization," and
"organism" with reference to society, the last appearing specially
objectionable to some persons, who feel that it suggests a closer resemblance
to animal or plant life than does in fact exist. On the other hand, "organism"
seems in many cases a fitter word than "organization," which is
usually understood to imply conscious purpose. It matters little, however, what
term we use if only we have a clear perception of the facts we are trying to
describe. Let us, then, consider shortly what we mean by such expressions.
If we take society to include the whole of human
life, this may truly be said to be organic, in the sense that influences may be
and are transmitted from one part to any other part, so that all parts are
bound together into an interdependent whole. We are all one life, and its
various phases-Asia, Europe, and America; democracy, militarism, and socialism;
state, church, and commerce; cities, villages, and families; and so on to the
particular persons, Tom, Dick, and Harry—may all be regarded, without the
slightest strain upon the facts, as organs of this whole, growing and
functioning under particular conditions, according to the adaptive process
already discussed. The total life being unified by interaction, each phase of
it must be and is, in some degree, an expression of the whole system. My
thought and action, for example, is by no means uninfluenced by what is going
on in Russia, and may truly be said to be a special expression of the general
thought of the time. 
Elsewhere he wrote: 
If . . . we
say that society is an organism, we mean . . . that it is a complex of forms of
processes each of which is living and growing by inter-action with the others,
the whole being so unified that what takes place in one part affects all the
rest. It is a vast tissue of reciprocal activity.
Our life is all one human whole, and if we are to
have any real knowledge of it we must see it as such. If we cut it up it dies
in the process.  
Earlier, a University of Chicago sociologist, Shailer
Mathews wrote in 1895 (when Moreno was 6 years old):
It is evident that normal humanity may in some way
resemble an organic whole, and it development the growth of an organism.
For Moreno, sociometry provided the connections,
pathways of communication that connect everybody with everybody. Social atoms
are so multiplicitly linked to so many other social atoms that are linked to so
many other social atoms, and this provides the infrastructure for the very
extensive networks that carry opinions, emotions, ideas and motivations
throughout humankind. It is likely that we could trace a sociometric linkage
between ourselves and every other person in the world if we just conducted the
ultimate sociometric experiement. Milgram’s Small World experiment, although
rather flawed, suggested that we have relative short linkages to people whom we
have never met.

John Nolte

On Friday, November 14, 2014 4:52 PM, National Psychodrama Training Center <nptc at snet.net> wrote:

On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 1:01 PM, "edwschreiber at earthlink.net" <edwschreiber at earthlink.net> wrote:

If one reads "Impromptu Man" by Jonathan D. Moreno, one finds references to Moreno's mysticism, 
Moreno as a mystic.  This mystic realm, the first universe, this primordial
nature, is what all mystics teach, write about and describe - can be understood with direct
experience.  Call it satori, or the Tree of Life in the Jewish mystic tradition, or the Christ within
in the Christian mystic tradition; it's what Moreno seems to have touched and points to.  It's the 
place within, and without where all are an emanation of one primordial nature.  Where the egoic
separation begins to drop away and we find in the white heat of action, this realm of experience.
That's my sense.

-----Original Message----- 
>From: edwschreiber at earthlink.net 
>Sent: Nov 12, 2014 12:20 PM 
>To: Group talk Listserv 
>Subject: Re: Let's look at the more complete picture! 
>As I see things, Moreno was highly critical of Marxism.  In his book "Sociometry and the Science of Society"
>>he articulates that critique. I am sure that critique is in other of his works, and has to do with the observation
>>that the sociodynamic effect is discernible in all cultures and social realities.
>>From my point of view, this organic unity has more to do with this:
>>"I suffered from an idee fixe, which became my constant source of productivity. It proclaimed that there is
>>a sort of primordial nature, which is immortal, a first universe which contains all beings and in which all events
>>are sacred."   JLM    The Future of Man's World
>>For all of Moreno's dynamics, as a human being, he points us to this primordial nature, this first universe.
>>This is what is the genesis of our unity with all of life, and one another.
>>This is what he seems to be inspired from.
>>> Dear Ed, others in this discussion and group,
>>> My take on "social and organic unity" of humanity is that Moreno is
>>> battling with Marx at this point. He seems well versed in Marx and
>>> this statement, opening 'Who Shall Survive?' is about changing the
>>> world, as much as therapy. Moreno does not deny the differences
>>> between people, and these are to be attended to using sociometry. Marx
>>> dug down to a fundamental difference on one criterion, based the
>>> relationship to the means of production, class. Unity is important to
>>> Marxists, and it is unity of the working class, the unity of humanity
>>> as a whole which not possible until all the means of production are
>>> collectively owned.
>>> Moreno seemed to work willingly with the military so his position does
>>> not exclude uniting against an enemy. Who is the enemy? Uniting
>>> against the corporate capitalist military industrial complex seems to
>>> be needed now as much as ever. Or should we aim for that unity that
>>> is there in principle, deeper than our differences? Moreno might have
>>> pointed to the great religions - and that is one path. He also
>>> pointed to a new political orientation (words from the title of one of
>>> his books *). Another path? Is there a way to include both? Neither
>>> his theology or his politics make a clear call. Maybe that is because
>>> the call is not to a belief, but to a methodology and to a scientific
>>> approach. It is up to us to
 investigate and to develop a science of
>>> society.
>>> Walter
>>> * Moreno, J.L. (2012) Sociometry, Experimental Method and The Science
>>> Of Society: An Approach to a New Political Orientation. The North-West
>>> Psychodrama Association, U.K
>>>> On 11 November 2014 14:50, wrote:
>>>> Good luck Peter.
>>>> Comments
>>>> Having just returned from training the graduate faculty of psychology in
>>>> Indonesia again, I am again amazed that with all the different religions
>>>> among the participants
>>>> the common language is love. That and being present in the moment to
>>>> receive this love -as a director or as a group member is what keeps me open
>>>> to the connection to the divine.
>>>> I think that once we get back to our spiritual intelligence -wherever we are
>>>> or go-we move from competition to co-creation and we stop asking ourselves
>>>> "What can I get?"
>>>> Instead we ask ourselves ?How can I serve?"
>>>> Connie Miller, Approved Clinical Supervisor, TEP.LPC.NCC
>>>> Owner and Founder International Institute for Souldrama
>>>> http://www.souldrama.com/
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Peter Howie [mailto:peter at moreno.com.au]
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 07:27 PM
>>>> To: 'Group talk Listserv'
>>>> Subject: Re: Let's look at the more complete picture!
>>>> Dear Ed,
>>>> I love and honour your relentlessness in reminding me that my little mind
>>>> has limits. You don't give up and you don't swerve aside. And you don't mind
>>>> driving me mad at times. I don't quite live in the same universe as you
>>>> though there are significant overlaps ...
>>>> I spent much of my youth engaged in serious spiritual activity and have
>>>> since gone another way, to the one you appear to be going. You appear to be
>>>> finding the spiritual life integrated within and in the use of psychodrama,
>>>> and even much of its theory. I started at the spiritual end and then found
>>>> that working psychodramatically provided many of the same experiences. My
>>>> realisation was that spirituality is in life, and not solely in the
>>>> practices I was following. It was some thing to find my heart as open from
>>>> being a protagonist as from many days of strict meditation or similar
>>>> practice. You have found from psychodrama mining, a sphere of
>>>> spirituality/livingness that opens up for you. Your expression reminds
>>>> about my early psychodrama experiences and that we, you and I, are both
>>>> working with a magical form. I agree that this stuff is as spiritual as it
>>>> gets - and thats not all ... ... ... The simplest role reversal shows we
>>>> have no self. Concretisation shows that we create our own universe. If that
>>>> isn't buddhist/taoist/sufist/vedantic I don't know what is.
>>>> So it seems that much of my current journey is at the opposite end of the
>>>> universe to you, but very likely the same universe with more dimensions than
>>>> either of us dreamt.
>>>> As for this statement you presented again: I take the idea that there is
>>>> value in looking at life from certain vantage points. Moreno
 found value
>>>> from looking at the world as though it was connected in some way. He
>>>> brilliantly leaves this particular criteria out so we can all take it in
>>>> different ways. I mean, really, the sentences can be seen as him stating the
>>>> obvious, a bit like we might as a consultant to a group or a person: "we
>>>> can't work out what to do until we find a way to look at the whole system.
>>>> Lets pretend that its a unity, that there are forces and factors that unite
>>>> people, and see what comes from that." Its an imaginative leap much like we
>>>> might do to have a protagonist engage with on the stage: "Now imagine you
>>>> are 20 years hence; you have overcome your life's obstacles and
>>>> tribulations; you have learned; look back at
 your whole life. What have you
>>>> learned?"
>>>> Cheers from here
>>>> Peter(waiting at the airport about to go to Japan and compete in a Shodokan
>>>> Aikido competition)
>>>> On 11 Nov 2014, at 8:49 am, Edward Schreiber 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> Happy Fall!
>>>> As I study sociatry (which is really socially engaged psychodrama) I love to
>>>> look at JLM's more complete picture.
>>>> Any comments about these ideas are invited!
>>>> Ed
>>>> "A truly therapeutic procedure cannot have less an
 objective than the whole
>>>> of mankind. But no adequate therapy can be prescribed as long as mankind is
>>>> not a unity in some fashion and as long as its organization remains unknown.
>>>> It helped us in the beginning to think, although we had no definite proof
>>>> for it, that mankind is a social and organic unity."
>>>> Grouptalk mailing list
>>>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>>>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>>> Grouptalk mailing list
>>>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>>>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>> Grouptalk mailing list
 List at grouptalkweb.org
>>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Please join us for our 73rd Annual Conference~Philadelphia April 9-12, 2015. Visit http:/www.asgpp.org for more information.
>>> If you'd like to unsubscribe or receive your emails in Digest mode once a day, please send an email to help at asgpplistserv.org with your request. Please allow a few hours for results.
>>> Visit the ASGPP Research Blog, at http://ASGPPListserv.org

Grouptalk mailing list
List at grouptalkweb.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grouptalkweb.org/pipermail/list_grouptalkweb.org/attachments/20141114/2c929fc0/attachment-0005.html>

More information about the List mailing list