Let's look at the more complete picture!

National Psychodrama Training Center nptc at snet.net
Tue Nov 18 17:22:02 UTC 2014


My reply to Schreiber's 11-17 post:  
 
"But no adequate therapy can be prescribed unless
mankind is a not unity of some fashion and as long as its organization remains
unknown.  It helped us in the beginning to think, although we had no
definite proof for it, that mankind is a social and organic unity."
 
For me the critical information above that follows "A
truly therapeutic procedure" is really important. It posits questions:
1) Is the unity of mankind the quantum field itself?
 
The organic unity of humankind is reflected in the
sociometry of humankind; it is the totality of humans interacting to create the
totality of what we have created and continue to create. Today it looks like
pretty much of a mess. George Carlin once suggested that the ultimate goal of
humanity was to wrap the planet in a 3 foot layer of Styrofoam.  Kurt Vonnegut , in his book, Titans of Venus, suggested that it was to
provide an alien from another planet with a part for his broken down spacecraft. The Great Wall of Chine, he wrote, was built as a
message to the alien. I don’t think J. L. specified the ultimate goal except to
keep on creating.
 
2) Is the quantum field the same "stuff" that
Moreno called The Highest Intelligence, Spontaneity-Creativity?
 
The quantum field is energy, as I understand David Bohm, and
arises from the interaction of the implicate order, also energy (which I think
is the same concept as J. L.’s concept of creativity) with the super-implicate
order, also energy (which I suggest is equivalent to J. L.’s notion of
spontaneity.) 
 
3) Are we helping people and groups to access the quantum
field, in direct experience, then to integrate that into mind-body?
 
We don’t have to access the quantum field. It accesses us.
 
4) What is the organization that remains unknown?
 
The sociometric organization of society.
 
5) Is this revealed in the sociometric science?
 
The sociometric organization of society and a lot of
hypotheses about how this organization influences what happens in the world.
 
6) In my experience with this tool, social microscopy, the
sociometry reveals the organic unity as sociometric structures discernible
within a group and also the concentration of energy and choices.
 
Yes, but I think it is clearer to say “concentration of
attraction.” 
 
7) These sociometric configurations show not only personal choices,
but the consciousness of human society, this concentration of resources to the
few and the emerging organic unity noted as circles of inclusion.  This is
a part of how sociometry becomes sociatry.
 
Sociatry is applied
sociometry. The group psychotherapies
are subfields of
sociatry, as the latter comprises also the
application of sociometric
knowledge to groups ‘at a distance’,
to inter-group
relations and to mankind as a total unit. Moreno, J. L. (1946). Psychodrama First
Volume, p. 316.
 
“Sociatry” is
logically the healing of normal society of the
socius. The term
derives from a Latin and a Greek root, the one
is socius, the “other
fellow”, the other iatreia, healing….Sociatry treats the pathological syndromes
of normal society, of inter-related individuals and of inter-related groups.
 
Sociatry is remedial
sociometry….Sociometry may just as often be applied sociatry as sociatry
applied sociometry.
 
Moreno, J. L. (1953).
Who Shall Survive?, p. 119.
 
8) Above and through it all, there's an invisible intelligence,
call it the Godhead, the Autonomous Healing Center, that moves the
personalities to the structures to illumiinate humanity at this time in human
experience.  
 
I don’t really understand this.
 
9) Both the form of society appears along with, in
correspondence to, the Godhead, this invisible realm - the quantum field.
 
Nor this.
 
John Nolte

 
   
 

 


On Monday, November 17, 2014 7:06 PM, Edward Schreiber <edwschreiber at icloud.com> wrote:
 


corrected:


>
>"But no adequate therapy can be prescribed unless mankind is a not unity of some fashion and as long as its organization remains unknown.  It helped us in the beginning to think, although we had no definite proof for it, that mankind is a social and organic unity."
>
>
>For me the critical information above that follows "A truly therapeutic procedure" is really important. It posits questions:
>1) Is the unity of mankind the quantum field itself?
>2) Is the quantum field the same "stuff" that Moreno called The Highest Intelligence, Spontaneity-Creativity?
>3) Are we helping people and groups to access the quantum field, in direct experience, then to integrate that into mind-body?
>4) What is the organization that remains unknown?
>5) Is this revealed in the sociometric science?
>6) In my experience with this tool, social microscopy, the sociometry reveals the organic unity as sociometric structures discernible within a group and also the concentration of energy and choices.
>7) These sociometric configurations show not only personal choices, but the consciousness of human society, this concentration of resources to the few and the emerging organic unity noted as circles of inclusion.  This is a part of how sociometry becomes sociatry.
>8) Above and through it all, there's an invisible intelligence, call it the Godhead, the Autonomous Healing Center, that moves the personalities to the structures to illumiinate humanity at this time in human experience.  
>9) Both the form of society appears along with, in correspondence to, the Godhead, this invisible realm - the quantum field.
>
>
>Ed
>
>
>
>
>On Nov 16, 2014, at 4:27 PM, National Psychodrama Training Center wrote:
>
> 
>>Compare:
>>
>>
>>
>>“A truly useful procedure should have as its objective nothing less
than the whole of mankind.”
>>These wordsbegan Moreno’s first published book, Who Shall Survive? My rephrase would be: “A good tool can be used
in many contexts and in the service of humanity.”
>>–Blatner,
A. (2000). Foundations of Psychodrama, (4th Ed.). p xv.
>>
>> 
>>  
>>
>>          The
objective of Who Shall Survive? was
to describe a sociometric experiment and not merely to introduce a number of
techniques. The first sentence in the book “A truly therapeutic procedure
cannot have less an objective than the whole of mankind” indicated my
intention. It is disconcerting that this has been so completely misunderstood
although in writing the book I have put this idea straight under the nose of
the reader. It is stranger yet that this sentences is the most frequently
quoted phrase of the book and that still its meaning has rarely been
appreciated. To demonstrate the idea, the book analyzes and enfolds an entire
community and tries to turn it from an untherapeutic community into a
therapeutic one–within the limits of its setting–by means of various methods.
It appears that for many this sentence has been taken at best as a poetic
metaphor for an ailing society and gently pushed aside. As a consequence, the
immediate meaning of the entire book has been overlooked....The principle task
of the experiment ws to initiate a therapeutic process which involves the
entire community, not only the so-called “inmates”, but the entire staff, from
the superintendent down to every teacher, social worker, minister, clerical
worker, farm worker, manual laborer, chauffeur, carpenter, electrician. The old
adage “Physician heal thyself” was replaced with a new one, “Community, heal thyself”.  
>> – Moreno, J. L. (1956). The sociometric school and the
science of man. Sociometry, 18, pp 23-24.
>> 
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>On Saturday, November 15, 2014 10:40 AM, Adam Blatner <adam at blatner.com> wrote:
>> 
>>
>>
>>Systems thinking here: 
>>    We are rooted in our bodies in part, our brains, our temperament, our genes
>>    We are thus rooted in our ancestors, and also culturally, our ethnicity, and our era (a transition from modern to postmodern, in our case, other descriptors in other cultures)
>>    Moreno emphasized and I agree that our identity must also include our relationships, both intimate, family, extended family, other social group affiliations (which are today not infrequently closer or more relevant than extended family), 
>>    ... and larger groupings  (see paper on my website on our social being-ness.)
>>Today, we are recognizing the impact of our microbiome, the germs that live on and with us, symbiotically, comensally, and at times parasitically
>>    And our relationships with all life, beyond humanity
>>       And our relationships with geophysical reality... as we pollute, frack the crust, etc.
>>
>>
>>So this awareness expresses a gradual expansion of consciousness. 
>>     But we should not accept all of Moreno's words because he said them. He said some very perceptive things and also at times flagrantly overgeneralized. The opening paragraph of Who Shall Survive involves both kinds of statements. Warmly, Adam
>>
>>
>>On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:13 PM, Buds <bud.weiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>I might also remind folks that in 1624 John Donne published his "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions " in which 
>>>Some of the most famous lines in all of English literature were penned: "No man is an island,
>>>Entire of itself, 
>>>Every man is a piece of the continent, 
>>>A part of the main. 
>>>If a clod be washed away by the sea, 
>>>Europe is the less. 
>>>As well as if a promontory were. 
>>>As well as if a manor of thy friend's 
>>>Or of
 thine own were: 
>>>Any man's death diminishes me, 
>>>Because I am involved in mankind, 
>>>And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; 
>>>It tolls for thee."Says it all quite nicely I should think.
>>>Cheers, Bud
>>>
>>>Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>On Nov 14, 2014, at 4:57 PM, National Psychodrama Training Center <nptc at snet.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>A comment regarding Moreno and his vision of humankind
as a social and organic unity. 
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>The organic nature of society is not a new idea
with Moreno. One earlier proponent of the idea was Charles Horton Cooley, one
of the few people, along with Henri Bergson, John Dewey, and Charles Pierce, to
whom Moreno gave credit for guiding his own thinking about society. 
>>>> 
>>>>Here are a couple of paragraphs from Cooley’s 1918
book, Social Process:
>>>> 
>>>>There has been much discussion regarding the use
of such words as "organic," "organization," and
"organism" with reference to society, the last appearing specially
objectionable to some persons, who feel that it suggests a closer resemblance
to animal or plant life than does in fact exist. On the other hand, "organism"
seems in many cases a fitter word than "organization," which is
usually understood to imply conscious purpose. It matters little, however, what
term we use if only we have a clear perception of the facts we are trying to
describe. Let us, then, consider shortly what we mean by such expressions.
>>>> 
>>>>If we take society to include the whole of human
life, this may truly be said to be organic, in the sense that influences may be
and are transmitted from one part to any other part, so that all parts are
bound together into an interdependent whole. We are all one life, and its
various phases-Asia, Europe, and America; democracy, militarism, and socialism;
state, church, and commerce; cities, villages, and families; and so on to the
particular persons, Tom, Dick, and Harry—may all be regarded, without the
slightest strain upon the facts, as organs of this whole, growing and
functioning under particular conditions, according to the adaptive process
already discussed. The total life being unified by interaction, each phase of
it must be and is, in some degree, an expression of the whole system. My
thought and action, for example, is by no means uninfluenced by what is going
on in Russia, and may truly be said to be a special expression of the general
thought of the time. 
>>>> 
>>>>Elsewhere he wrote: 
>>>> 
>>>>If . . . we
say that society is an organism, we mean . . . that it is a complex of forms of
processes each of which is living and growing by inter-action with the others,
the whole being so unified that what takes place in one part affects all the
rest. It is a vast tissue of reciprocal activity.
>>>> 
>>>>And: 
>>>> 
>>>>Our life is all one human whole, and if we are to
have any real knowledge of it we must see it as such. If we cut it up it dies
in the process.  
>>>> 
>>>>Earlier, a University of Chicago sociologist, Shailer
Mathews wrote in 1895 (when Moreno was 6 years old):
>>>> 
>>>>It is evident that normal humanity may in some way
resemble an organic whole, and it development the growth of an organism.
>>>> 
>>>>For Moreno, sociometry provided the connections,
pathways of communication that connect everybody with everybody. Social atoms
are so multiplicitly linked to so many other social atoms that are linked to so
many other social atoms, and this provides the infrastructure for the very
extensive networks that carry opinions, emotions, ideas and motivations
throughout humankind. It is likely that we could trace a sociometric linkage
between ourselves and every other person in the world if we just conducted the
ultimate sociometric experiement. Milgram’s Small World experiment, although
rather flawed, suggested that we have relative short linkages to people whom we
have never met.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>John Nolte
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Friday, November 14, 2014 4:52 PM, National Psychodrama Training Center <nptc at snet.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 1:01 PM, "edwschreiber at earthlink.net" <edwschreiber at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>If one reads "Impromptu Man" by Jonathan D. Moreno, one finds references to Moreno's mysticism, 
>>>>Moreno as a mystic.  This mystic realm, the first universe, this primordial
>>>>nature, is what all mystics teach, write about and describe - can be understood with direct
>>>>experience.  Call it satori, or the Tree of Life in the Jewish mystic tradition, or the Christ within
>>>>in the Christian mystic tradition; it's what Moreno seems to have touched and points to.  It's the 
>>>>place within, and without where all are an emanation of one primordial nature.  Where the egoic
>>>>separation begins to drop away and we find in the white heat of action, this realm of experience.
>>>> 
>>>>That's my sense.
>>>> 
>>>>Best,
>>>>Ed
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>-----Original Message----- 
>>>>>From: edwschreiber at earthlink.net 
>>>>>Sent: Nov 12, 2014 12:20 PM 
>>>>>To: Group talk Listserv 
>>>>>Subject: Re: Let's look at the more complete picture! 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>As I see things, Moreno was highly critical of Marxism.  In his book "Sociometry and the Science of Society"
>>>>>>he articulates that critique. I am sure that critique is in other of his works, and has to do with the observation
>>>>>>that the sociodynamic effect is discernible in all cultures and social realities.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>From my point of view, this organic unity has more to do with this:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>"I suffered from an idee fixe, which became my constant source of productivity. It proclaimed that there is
>>>>>>a sort of primordial nature, which is immortal, a first universe which contains all beings and in which all events
>>>>>>are sacred."   JLM    The Future of Man's World
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>For all of Moreno's dynamics, as a human being, he points us to this primordial nature, this first universe.
>>>>>>This is what is the genesis of our unity with all of life, and one another.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This is what he seems to be inspired from.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ed
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dear Ed, others in this discussion and group,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My take on "social and organic unity" of humanity is that Moreno is
>>>>>>> battling with Marx at this point. He seems well versed in Marx and
>>>>>>> this statement, opening 'Who Shall Survive?' is about changing the
>>>>>>> world, as much as therapy. Moreno does not deny the differences
>>>>>>> between people, and these are to be attended to using sociometry. Marx
>>>>>>> dug down to a fundamental difference on one criterion, based the
>>>>>>> relationship to the means of production, class. Unity is important to
>>>>>>> Marxists, and it is unity of the working class, the unity of humanity
>>>>>>> as a whole which not possible until all the means of production are
>>>>>>> collectively owned.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Moreno seemed to work willingly with the military so his position does
>>>>>>> not exclude uniting against an enemy. Who is the enemy? Uniting
>>>>>>> against the corporate capitalist military industrial complex seems to
>>>>>>> be needed now as much as ever. Or should we aim for that unity that
>>>>>>> is there in principle, deeper than our differences? Moreno might have
>>>>>>> pointed to the great religions - and that is one path. He also
>>>>>>> pointed to a new political orientation (words from the title of one of
>>>>>>> his books *). Another path? Is there a way to include both? Neither
>>>>>>> his theology or his politics make a clear call. Maybe that is because
>>>>>>> the call is not to a belief, but to a methodology and to a scientific
>>>>>>> approach. It is up to us to
 investigate and to develop a science of
>>>>>>> society.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Walter
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> * Moreno, J.L. (2012) Sociometry, Experimental Method and The Science
>>>>>>> Of Society: An Approach to a New Political Orientation. The North-West
>>>>>>> Psychodrama Association, U.K
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 11 November 2014 14:50, wrote:
>>>>>>>> Good luck Peter.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Comments
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Having just returned from training the graduate faculty of psychology in
>>>>>>>> Indonesia again, I am again amazed that with all the different religions
>>>>>>>> among the participants
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> the common language is love. That and being present in the moment to
>>>>>>>> receive this love -as a director or as a group member is what keeps me open
>>>>>>>> to the connection to the divine.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think that once we get back to our spiritual intelligence -wherever we are
>>>>>>>> or go-we move from competition to co-creation and we stop asking ourselves
>>>>>>>> "What can I get?"
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Instead we ask ourselves ?How can I serve?"
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Connie Miller, Approved Clinical Supervisor, TEP.LPC.NCC
>>>>>>>> Owner and Founder International Institute for Souldrama
>>>>>>>> http://www.souldrama.com/
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Peter Howie [mailto:peter at moreno.com.au]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 07:27 PM
>>>>>>>> To: 'Group talk Listserv'
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Let's look at the more complete picture!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Dear Ed,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I love and honour your relentlessness in reminding me that my little mind
>>>>>>>> has limits. You don't give up and you don't swerve
 aside. And you don't mind
>>>>>>>> driving me mad at times. I don't quite live in the same universe as you
>>>>>>>> though there are significant overlaps
 ...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I spent much of my youth engaged in serious spiritual activity and have
>>>>>>>> since gone another way, to the one you appear to be going. You appear to be
>>>>>>>> finding the spiritual life integrated within and in the use of psychodrama,
>>>>>>>> and even much of its theory. I started at the spiritual end and then found
>>>>>>>> that working psychodramatically provided many of the same experiences. My
>>>>>>>> realisation was that spirituality is in life, and not solely in the
>>>>>>>> practices I was following. It was some thing to find my heart as open from
>>>>>>>> being a protagonist as from many days of strict meditation
 or similar
>>>>>>>> practice. You have found from psychodrama mining, a sphere of
>>>>>>>> spirituality/livingness that opens up for you. Your expression reminds
 me
>>>>>>>> about my early psychodrama experiences and that we, you and I, are both
>>>>>>>> working with a magical form. I agree that this stuff is as spiritual as it
>>>>>>>> gets - and thats not all ... ... ... The simplest role reversal shows we
>>>>>>>> have no self. Concretisation shows that we create our own universe. If that
>>>>>>>> isn't buddhist/taoist/sufist/vedantic I don't know what is.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So it seems that much of my current journey is at the opposite end of the
>>>>>>>> universe to you, but very likely the same universe with more dimensions than
>>>>>>>> either of us dreamt.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As for this statement you presented again: I take the idea that there is
>>>>>>>> value in looking at life from certain vantage points. Moreno
 found value
>>>>>>>> from looking at the world as though it was connected in some way. He
>>>>>>>> brilliantly leaves this particular criteria out so we can all take it in
>>>>>>>> different ways. I mean, really, the sentences can be seen as him stating the
>>>>>>>> obvious, a bit like we might as a consultant to a group or a person: "we
>>>>>>>> can't work out what to do until we find a way to look at the whole system.
>>>>>>>> Lets pretend that its a unity, that there are forces and factors that unite
>>>>>>>> people, and see what comes from that." Its an imaginative leap much like we
>>>>>>>> might do to have a protagonist engage with on the stage: "Now imagine you
>>>>>>>> are 20 years hence; you have overcome your life's obstacles and
>>>>>>>> tribulations; you have learned; look back at
 your whole life. What have you
>>>>>>>> learned?"
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Cheers from here
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Peter(waiting at the airport about to go to Japan and compete in a Shodokan
>>>>>>>> Aikido competition)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 11 Nov 2014, at 8:49 am, Edward Schreiber 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Happy Fall!
>>>>>>>> As I study sociatry (which is really socially engaged psychodrama) I love to
>>>>>>>> look at JLM's more complete picture.
>>>>>>>> Any comments about these ideas are invited!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ed
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> "A truly therapeutic procedure cannot have less an
 objective than the whole
>>>>>>>> of mankind. But no adequate therapy can be prescribed as long as mankind is
>>>>>>>> not a unity in some fashion and as long as its organization remains unknown.
>>>>>>>> It helped us in the beginning to think, although we had no definite proof
>>>>>>>> for it, that mankind is a social and organic unity."
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Grouptalk mailing list
>>>>>>>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>>>>>>>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Grouptalk mailing list
>>>>>>>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>>>>>>>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Grouptalk mailing list
>>>>>>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>>>>>>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Please join us for our 73rd Annual Conference~Philadelphia April 9-12, 2015. Visit http:/www.asgpp.org for more information.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If you'd like to unsubscribe or receive your emails
 in Digest mode once a day, please send an email to help at asgpplistserv.org with your request. Please allow a few hours for results.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Visit the ASGPP Research Blog, at http://ASGPPListserv.org
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Grouptalk mailing list
>>>>List at grouptalkweb.org
>>>>http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Grouptalk mailing list
>>>>List at grouptalkweb.org
>>>>http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>>>
>>>Grouptalk mailing list
>>>List at grouptalkweb.org
>>>http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>Grouptalk mailing list
>>List at grouptalkweb.org
>>http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grouptalkweb.org/pipermail/list_grouptalkweb.org/attachments/20141118/b6251d35/attachment-0005.html>


More information about the List mailing list