Warming Up to Clearwater with this quote:

National Psychodrama Training Center nptc at snet.net
Tue Apr 25 13:25:11 PDT 2017


Bud, 
Thank you so much for your gratifying praise of my book. You won’t surprised that I really appreciate your words.
Adam, Ed, Shelly and everybody else, my 20 cents (2 cents adjusted for today’s economy):
In his autobiography, J. L. Moreno calls an experience that he had when he was about 14 years old a mystical experience. I don’t know how his description of the events culminating in The Words of the Father can be construed  as other than a mystical experience. He unquestionably liked to present himself as a healer, perhaps as a prophet (although his prophesy that sociometry, group psychotherapy, sociatry, and psychodrama would soon be leading the way in sociology, psychiatry and psychotherapy has yet to come to fruition, unfortunately). Zerka and Jonathan have both called him a mystic. However, lots of people have had mystical experiences, religious and otherwise, without being labeled mystics. Does a mystical experience, or even several of them, make one a mystic? Or should we reserve the term for someone who practices mysticism? Moreno was certainly more of a sociologist and psychologist, not to mention a practicing psychiatrist, whose thoroughly scientific work was partially informed by an early mystical experience. My experience of Moreno was that of another human being who had made great contributions but with no unusual powers except his exquisite intuition, and I think intuition can easily be conceptualized as a function of spontaneity.  

    On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 4:23 PM, National Psychodrama Training Center <nptc at snet.net> wrote:
 

  

    On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 12:24 PM, "edwschreiber at earthlink.net" <edwschreiber at earthlink.net> wrote:
 

 #yiv1603069053 -- DIV {margin:0px;}#yiv1603069053 My only exposure with JLM was through Zerka.
To her he was a mystic.
Best,
Ed


-----Original Message----- 
From: Buds 
Sent: Apr 25, 2017 11:49 AM 
To: edwschreiber at earthlink.net 
Cc: Adam Blatner , Grouptalk , asgpp listserve 
Subject: Re: Warming Up to Clearwater with this quote: 

 I really didn't experience him as a mystic, rather as one who, while dangerously possessed at times,  was  mostly deeply conversant with his madness yearning to join what Einstein spoke of as freeing ourselves from the prison of our separatist delusional state
"by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." In a full out mad fit writing "The words of the Father" from the realization of his embrace, he sought and often returned to that primordial realm creating that ever widening circle as he journeyed. BudSent from my iPhone
On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:50 AM, <edwschreiber at earthlink.net> <edwschreiber at earthlink.net> wrote:


Your message here reminds me of Jonathan Moreno's video clip about "Impromptu Man" noting that JL was " a mystic who wanted to heal the universe."  Best,
Ed



-----Original Message----- 
From: Buds 
Sent: Apr 25, 2017 3:34 AM 
To: Adam Blatner 
Cc: Edward Schreiber , Grouptalk , asgpp listserve 
Subject: Re: Warming Up to Clearwater with this quote: 

 I think the most profound book written about Moreno and the field and that is a must for those devoted to exploring the many spheres involved,  especially in this quote of Moreno's under examination in this series of posts, is that of John Nolte's "The Philosophy, Theory and Methods of J.L. Moreno; The Man Who Tried To Become God." For my money, the levels of John's exploration of Moreno's work and its implications and directions touching deeply on our most esteemed physics and philosophies is beyond anything else I have read and I have delved into quite a bit over my 49 years of involvement. I too became possessed by grasping at the seeming mysticism Moreno speaks of in his IDEE FIXE. And I am sure it was not mysticism at all, rather a struggle to find that point of Archemides , and in many ways, I think Moreno did find it and moved the world. 
John is  one of, if not the most Senior Psychodramatist alive and still kicking it out there who trained and worked with the Moreno's for many years beginning back in the early 60s.  He continues to be consistently devoted to explicating the many implications of the work and the training of others especially in the legal field in the dynamic use of all the toolshttps://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1138184810/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr=
The task of writing such a comprehensive volume is quite beyond me in many ways though I have benefitted from it in some measure of joy in the reading and the sense of fellowship I obtained in the process. John's familiarity with the different spheres of thought and action required him to journey in similar course to that of Moreno himself and beyond. 
While I have many reservations about certain personal aspects of Moreno himself, One of the things that inspired me about him was his voracious exploration of the cutting edge of the arts and in all sciences not just social sciences. Over the somewhat brief time during which I was involved with him in intimate conversations at Beacon about the work and life,  he would over and over site with passion, references I had never heard of, driving me to research them to expand my thinking. At one point, he was pushing me to learn to read or have translated other connected works in less than mainstream languages to be able to plumb the depths of creative genius in those to gain, as had he, their resources otherwise lost to serious voyagers in these realms. 
John's book is a treasure trove that cannot help but enrich the path of all who travel here.Be well, Bud
Sent from my iPhone


Sent from my iPhoneOn Apr 24, 2017, at 11:31 AM, Adam Blatner <adam at blatner.com> wrote:


This morning I got it: Making Creativity the prime directive is an archetypal commitment.​ Perhaps God said, as Berdyayev  noted about a hundred years ago, that the prime commandment is "Be Creative, and Foster Creativity in Others." Although I noted this many years ago in Foundations, I just got it as a new insight, which explains the theological implications of Moreno's thinking. We are called in this century to own our own creative potential. We are called to be in a sense born, to create even our theology.     We are in a sense the creative organ of God, at least on this planet. Not dominion and the use of animals for food, but create.      Well, thanks for reminding me. Warmly, Adam
  “Why I chose the course of theater instead of founding a religious sect, joining a monastery, or developing a system of theology (although none of these alternatives excludes any of the other) can be understood by taking a look into the setting from which my ideas arose.  I suffered from an idee fixe, or from what might have been called an affectation then, but which could be called today, now that the harvest is coming in, the grace of God
On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 4:50 AM, <edwschreiber at earthlink.net> wrote:

For me, Moreno points to the zen experience, that state of non-duality and presence.It's what, in my experience, our method allows us to access - and in some essential way.Best,
Ed



-----Original Message----- 
From: Adam Blatner via Members 
Sent: Apr 23, 2017 9:33 PM 
To: Edward Schreiber 
Cc: asgpp listserve 
Subject: Re: Warming Up to Clearwater with this quote: 

This quote is in at least one of Moreno's published articles, also. I think I referred to it in my article on Moreno's Idee Fixe.      Indeed, a certain degree of mystical intuition is present. That does not mean that Moreno interpreted it correctly, or for that matter I have a better interpretation. But I do have an interpretation: There is thinking, at a low level, and even higher animals do that. I call this the 5th dimension.There is thinking about thinking, a conscious awareness of having been fooled, or fooling oneself; an awareness of forgetting or mis-estimating. All humans do this, and few if any animals. I call this the 6th dimension.
There is thinking about thinking about thinking, which includes anthropology, some mythology, some comparative cultural psychology, etc. Few pre-modern intellectuals do this, and not many thoroughly modern and some post-modern intellectuals too. 
Then there are mystics who realize that thinking is not all rational. Sometimes it's musical, or humor. It's often intuition-al, and insights at this level cannot be described at lower dimensions any more than animals can understand a sentence that begins, "If I were to to that..."    I think this is what Moreno was referring to. Hm?  Warmly, Adam
On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 7:57 AM, <edwschreiber at earthlink.net> wrote:


  “Why I chose the course of theater instead of founding a religious sect, joining a monastery, or developing a system of theology (although none of these alternatives excludes any of the other) can be understood by taking a look into the setting from which my ideas arose.  I suffered from an idee fixe, or from what might have been called an affectation then, but which could be called today, now that the harvest is coming in, the grace of God.  The idee fixe became my constant source of productivity.  It proclaimed that there is a sort of primordial nature, which is immortal, and returns afresh with every new generation, a first universe which contains all beings, and in which all events are sacred.”J.L Moreno Diary of a Genius (unpublished)






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