List Digest, Vol 133, Issue 9

Philip Carter phil.carter at aut.ac.nz
Mon Jul 10 21:47:29 UTC 2017


Hi Ann
There are various efforts on this here and there, which could be collated from trolling through the online AANZPA journals.
I had a paper published on using the role test as a method of assessment:
Carter, P. D. (2014). The psychodramatic role test: An examination of the science. The Arts in Psychotherapy 41(3), 250-256.
Part of a psychodramatic session was formulated as an experiment. The psychodramatist posed a hypothesis that certain functioning that been achieved as a result of a therapeutic intervention. A psychodramatic role test was devised to test that hypothesis. This instance of a role test was then used to reflect on and examine the ‘science’ of the role test. The role test was found to be scientific in that: a hypothesis is submitted to its greatest challenge; ecological validity is approached by seeking to have all significant factors in their actual dynamics; all factors can be arranged in different configurations. Limitations from a scientific perspective were: replication is not possible, generalizability is limited, dependent and independent variables are ill-defined, and claims to causality are debatable. The article may offer ideas on how therapists could scrutinize the methods within their own practice as to scientific worthiness and not solely rely on external ideas of evidence and science.

An interesting parallel to the development of functioning through a relationship is in this paper:
Carter, P. D. (2009). The drama is always right in front of you: Sociodrama for the development of social insight and action. Qualitative Inquiry, 15, 1480-1497.
This article is a story in three acts. Act I is the initial article submitted to Qualitative Inquiry describing an unscripted sociodrama that occurred in a weekly psychodrama group two days after September 11, 2001 (initial submission titled, 9/11 in New Zealand: A point of leverage). Act II presents the reviewer’s response to the submission in which he invites more discussion of the participants and content of the drama, as well as an attempt at stating the salient aspect or moral of the story. The author’s response begins in Act II and concludes in Act III. The author acts on the psychodramatic principles of the meaning always being immediately in right in front of one’s nose and that everything is connected. In taking space to value his own immediate response to the reviewer and trusting that it would be connected with the theme of the drama, the author does come, after a period of reflection and writing, to identify a theme that is both in the process of crafting this article and in the sociodrama: keeping going with each other. The production process of writing has been enthused by the life of the theme and has also helped to cultivate it. The writing has been a reciprocal co-creation between the author and the reviewer and so is authentic in living its message. Act III concludes with a twist that reveals the real moral of the story.

From: List [mailto:list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org] On Behalf Of annehale
Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2017 9:21 a.m.
To: list at grouptalkweb.org
Subject: RE: List Digest, Vol 133, Issue 9

Walter,  wonderful to read your post. I have often thought that role analysis model as a research instrument could be developed as the client and therapist diagram progress over time, from fragmented role/actions to coping roles to  progressive roles. Measurement is implied;however, it could be a developed scientifically to the point of "evidence based".
Is anyone in your neck of the woods working on this?
Ann
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: list-request at grouptalkweb.org<mailto:list-request at grouptalkweb.org>
Date: 07/10/2017 15:00 (GMT-05:00)
To: list at grouptalkweb.org<mailto:list at grouptalkweb.org>
Subject: List Digest, Vol 133, Issue 9

Send List mailing list submissions to
list at grouptalkweb.org<mailto:list at grouptalkweb.org>

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
list-request at grouptalkweb.org<mailto:list-request at grouptalkweb.org>

You can reach the person managing the list at
list-owner at grouptalkweb.org<mailto:list-owner at grouptalkweb.org>

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of List digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: the goals of psychodrama (Walter Logeman)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 13:34:51 +1200
From: Walter Logeman <walter at psybernet.co.nz<mailto:walter at psybernet.co.nz>>
To: Adam Blatner <adam at blatner.com<mailto:adam at blatner.com>>
Cc: asgpp listserve <members at asgpplistserv.org<mailto:members at asgpplistserv.org>>, Grouptalk
<list at grouptalkweb.org<mailto:list at grouptalkweb.org>>
Subject: Re: the goals of psychodrama
Message-ID:
<CANixeNTniRww6eg1h0q95MA_hpkDyoR=7zugv5DgDQYkkAG1WQ at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CANixeNTniRww6eg1h0q95MA_hpkDyoR=7zugv5DgDQYkkAG1WQ at mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Adam all,

I'm reflecting on Societry and came across this thread from April.  It is a
delight to read your quotes from Nina (Antonina) Garcia:

"One of the gifts of psychodrama is that it can be adapted for use in a
variety of fields. Sociodrama, a less personal modality than psychodrama is
particularly ideal for use in non-clinical settings."

It makes sense - we can put anything and everything on that stage.  Seeing
the stage as laboratory is a major Morenian contribution.

I want to present an opposing view to one I know you hold firmly, and one I
think others hold too

It is true:

(Quoting Adam) "That psychodrama as therapy is being increasingly
challenged by third-party-payors as being insufficiently evidence-based."

But I hope we can find a way to agree that what you say next is wrong, at
least in many cases:

"That?s because a significant portion of what psychodrama can treat or help
may be better treated by medicines or other therapies. Lumping together
treatment and a useful tool for continuing education is a grave category
error. I?m advocating a conceptual divorce: Psychodrama as an aid to
treatment of that which is presently classified as a mental disorder?itself
a rather controversial theme?and what I call ?action explorations? (really
applied psychodrama) in non-treatment-oriented contexts."

I am a practicing psychotherapist using psychodrama in groups, with
couples, in supervision and with individuals.  If I thought these
people could be "be better treated by medicines or other therapies." I
would refer them on.

I think that psychodramatists are among the best therapists and that the
holistic psychodramatic modality - not just the action but the framework of
tele, conserves, spontaneity, creativity, roles, sociometry, stage,
director, auxiliary, protagonist and the broad view of humanity and
survival - forms a very solid base for psychotherapy. A psychodramatist can
think systemically and specifically to suit the uniqueness of each client,
or group.

The reason it is not "evidence based" is that the science has been hard to
do on a method that values spontaneity rather than a manual. In so far that
the science has been done - and there is a lot - it has not managed all the
political hurdles.  Additionally, sociometry itself is a social science and
and evaluation is made all the time as psychodrama is measuring
relationships and outcomes.

A Psychodrama qualification is recognised in Australia and New Zealand as a
basis for being registered as a psychotherapist.  (PACFA and PBANZ) This
recognition has been lost I think in the USA?  Does it exist in other
counties? We are making every effort to keep that avenue to legitimation to
practice open.

There have been advances in psychotherapy since Moreno.  We can learn from
other modalities. In recent decades I have steeped myself in a few of
them.  I have found the best way to think of the learning is of it as
enriching my psychodramatic practice.  Psychodrama, i.e. all
Moranian methods are a potent way of seeing the world and can incorporate
and amplify many ways of seeing.

For all that, we should not be fundamentalists.  Moreno like Marx, Freud
had a way of seeing the world.  To use any of these perspectives requires
decades of study and practice, and then the humility to see that there are
many ways.

Warm wishes

Walter

Walter Logeman
Psychotherapist
Harakeke Centre
Christchurch
New Zealand
021 271 0610
walter at psybernet.co.nz<mailto:walter at psybernet.co.nz>






On 11 April 2017 at 15:50, Adam Blatner <adam at blatner.com<mailto:adam at blatner.com>> wrote:

> Rob Pramann of Utah has posted some very useful papers that seem worthy of
> being read by students of psychodrama.
>
> .
>
>
> ?Here's ?
> a list of research that went support to psychodrama. Here is a link to it
> on my agency's website. Here is the section of the website words posted
> http://cccutah.org/articles.htm .
>
>
>  Here is the page in HTML format http://cccutah.org/eprr.htm . It is also
> available in Word and PDF format too.
>
>
>
> Rob Pramann, PhD, ABPP, TEP, BCPCC, CGP
>
> Clinical Director, Christian Counseling Centers Of Utah
>
> Executive Editor, The Journal of Psychodrama, Sociometry, and Group
> Psychotherapy
> Fellow, American Society of Group Psychotherapy and Psychodrama
>
> Board Certified in Group Psychology
>
> ABE Certified Trainer, Educator and Practitioner of Psychodrama
>
> IBCC Certified Professional Christian Counselor
>
> IBCGP Certified Group Psychotherapist
>
> ASCH Approved Consultant in Clinical Hypnosis
>
> Mailing address: 525 E. 4500 S., Suite 125, Salt Lake City, Utah
> 84107-2995
>
> Email address:  utahssccc at aol.com<mailto:utahssccc at aol.com>
>
> Website: www.cccutah.org<http://www.cccutah.org>
>
> Phone:  (801) 268-1564 x13 <(801)%20268-1564> (Tel); (801) 268-1565 (Fax)
>
> [image: Rob Pramann PhD ABPP][image: Rob Pramann PhD ABPP]
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Members [mailto:members-bounces at asgpplistserv.org] *On Behalf Of *Adam
> Blatner via Members
> *Sent:* Monday, April 10, 2017 1:42 PM
> *To:* Grouptalk <list at grouptalkweb.org<mailto:list at grouptalkweb.org>>; asgpp listserve <
> members at asgpplistserv.org<mailto:members at asgpplistserv.org>>
> *Subject:* the goals of psychodrama
>
>
>
> Nina (Antonina) Garcia in a recent interview said, ? One of the gifts of
> psychodrama is that it can be adapted for use in a variety of fields.
> Sociodrama, a less personal modality than psychodrama is particularly ideal
> for use in non-clinical settings. I used it to train state and county
> police for 12 years; to train librarians and census takers; to work with
> incarcerated youths; and as a rehearsal technique in many plays I directed
> over the years.
>
>
>
> Nina goes on: ?I'm not unique in this. Psychodramatists train lawyers,
> physicians, corporate executives and workers, those who work in banks,
> stores, hospitality and for our nation's Secret Service. They also work in
> education teaching many things, such as social skills, anti-bullying, and
> coping with teenage pregnancy. Psychodrama and its partners, sociodrama and
> sociometry can go anywhere to help heal individuals, groups and,
> ultimately, the world."
>
>
>
> My (Adam's) point  is that indeed, psychodrama is, as Moreno said in the
> opening line of his major work (his Magnum Opus, in Latin),  ?a truly
> useful procedure.? As such, it has applications both in the medical model
> and in the general societry. In the former, though, there are increasing
> constraints. It was possible for Moreno to think of social improvement as
> therapy, but that word, therapy, means something far more restrictive today.
>
>
>
> For one thing, the world?s problems should not be viewed as ?sickness? and
> no physician knows really what?s the ?healthy solution.? Our awareness of
> the complexity of life has advanced so that the medical model is far too
> simple. It?s not as if we are ?sick? and any professional knows how we
> should bet ?better.?  Politics is highly complex and our species as a whole
> is advancing in its technological potential beyond our psychology or
> philosophy can act as guides.
>
>
>
> We must recognize that we don?t know the answers, nor may we claim to have
> methods that will give us the final answers. Maybe we have some tools that
> can help, and that?s something. A little humility is called for.
>
>
>
> The second point is that psychodrama as therapy is being increasingly
> challenged by third-party-payors as being insufficiently evidence-based.
> That?s because a significant portion of what psychodrama can treat or help
> may be better treated by medicines or other therapies. Lumping together
> treatment and a useful tool for continuing education is a grave category
> error. I?m advocating a conceptual divorce: Psychodrama as an aid to
> treatment of that which is presently classified as a mental disorder?itself
> a rather controversial theme?and what I call ?action explorations? (really
> applied psychodrama) in non-treatment-oriented contexts.
>
>
>
> Indeed, in this era of evidence-based evaluation of psychotherapies?itself
> a rather dubious measure, but one that is, alas, dominant?the use of
> Morenian approaches for non-therapy purposes is something rather different.
> For one thing, the levels of ego strength in the parties being assessed is
> quite different. (Indeed, although there are exceptions, those with mental
> illness tend to have significantly less ego strength or resilience than
> normal or healthy people!)
>
>
>
> In other words, endeavors that are undertaken by healthy people are
> qualitatively different from therapy?a distinction that was less apparent
> in the heyday of psychoanalysis and the emergence of psychodrama?the
> mid-1930s through the late 1940s.  During that time many psychoanalysts
> ?and Moreno, too?overestimated the power and over-reached the applicability
> of their insights.
>
>
>
> As for me, I am turning my attention away from psychiatric treatments and
> more towards applications beyond the medical model. I confess that I have
> no special qualifications for this goal, other than to question anyone
> else?s qualifications, either. It?s a risky business, but I don?t care.
>
>
>
>
> Grouptalk mailing list
> List at grouptalkweb.org<mailto:List at grouptalkweb.org>
> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grouptalkweb.org/pipermail/list_grouptalkweb.org/attachments/20170710/a12f8601/attachment-0001.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image002.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 11695 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://grouptalkweb.org/pipermail/list_grouptalkweb.org/attachments/20170710/a12f8601/attachment-0002.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 13902 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://grouptalkweb.org/pipermail/list_grouptalkweb.org/attachments/20170710/a12f8601/attachment-0003.jpg>

------------------------------

Subject: Digest Footer

Grouptalk mailing list
List at grouptalkweb.org<mailto:List at grouptalkweb.org>
http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org



------------------------------

End of List Digest, Vol 133, Issue 9
************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grouptalkweb.org/pipermail/list_grouptalkweb.org/attachments/20170710/bb40e6d0/attachment.html>


More information about the List mailing list