Fwd: List Digest, Vol 133, Issue 9

Walter Logeman walter at psybernet.co.nz
Tue Jul 11 05:22:48 UTC 2017


Hi Anne

Thanks for your words.  Earlier this year we had a post-conference
workshop using psychodramatic methods to explore the "hypothesis of
the social atom" as Moreno called it.  We came up with a lot of
insights.  One member of the group said she would develop an
"instrument" for measuring change in the social atom.

Not quite what you are talking about but I will forward this to her
and see how she is getting on.

Phil, love your follow up and there is plenty there to look at.

Warm wishes

Walter

On 11 July 2017 at 09:21, annehale <annehale at cox.net> wrote:
> Walter,  wonderful to read your post. I have often thought that role
> analysis model as a research instrument could be developed as the client and
> therapist diagram progress over time, from fragmented role/actions to coping
> roles to  progressive roles. Measurement is implied;however, it could be a
> developed scientifically to the point of "evidence based".
> Is anyone in your neck of the woods working on this?
> Ann
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>
>
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> Subject: List Digest, Vol 133, Issue 9
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>    1. Re: the goals of psychodrama (Walter Logeman)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 13:34:51 +1200
> From: Walter Logeman <walter at psybernet.co.nz>
> To: Adam Blatner <adam at blatner.com>
> Cc: asgpp listserve <members at asgpplistserv.org>, Grouptalk
> <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Subject: Re: the goals of psychodrama
> Message-ID:
> <CANixeNTniRww6eg1h0q95MA_hpkDyoR=7zugv5DgDQYkkAG1WQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi Adam all,
>
> I'm reflecting on Societry and came across this thread from April.  It is a
> delight to read your quotes from Nina (Antonina) Garcia:
>
> "One of the gifts of psychodrama is that it can be adapted for use in a
> variety of fields. Sociodrama, a less personal modality than psychodrama is
> particularly ideal for use in non-clinical settings."
>
> It makes sense - we can put anything and everything on that stage.  Seeing
> the stage as laboratory is a major Morenian contribution.
>
> I want to present an opposing view to one I know you hold firmly, and one I
> think others hold too
>
> It is true:
>
> (Quoting Adam) "That psychodrama as therapy is being increasingly
> challenged by third-party-payors as being insufficiently evidence-based."
>
> But I hope we can find a way to agree that what you say next is wrong, at
> least in many cases:
>
> "That?s because a significant portion of what psychodrama can treat or help
> may be better treated by medicines or other therapies. Lumping together
> treatment and a useful tool for continuing education is a grave category
> error. I?m advocating a conceptual divorce: Psychodrama as an aid to
> treatment of that which is presently classified as a mental disorder?itself
> a rather controversial theme?and what I call ?action explorations? (really
> applied psychodrama) in non-treatment-oriented contexts."
>
> I am a practicing psychotherapist using psychodrama in groups, with
> couples, in supervision and with individuals.  If I thought these
> people could be "be better treated by medicines or other therapies." I
> would refer them on.
>
> I think that psychodramatists are among the best therapists and that the
> holistic psychodramatic modality - not just the action but the framework of
> tele, conserves, spontaneity, creativity, roles, sociometry, stage,
> director, auxiliary, protagonist and the broad view of humanity and
> survival - forms a very solid base for psychotherapy. A psychodramatist can
> think systemically and specifically to suit the uniqueness of each client,
> or group.
>
> The reason it is not "evidence based" is that the science has been hard to
> do on a method that values spontaneity rather than a manual. In so far that
> the science has been done - and there is a lot - it has not managed all the
> political hurdles.  Additionally, sociometry itself is a social science and
> and evaluation is made all the time as psychodrama is measuring
> relationships and outcomes.
>
> A Psychodrama qualification is recognised in Australia and New Zealand as a
> basis for being registered as a psychotherapist.  (PACFA and PBANZ) This
> recognition has been lost I think in the USA?  Does it exist in other
> counties? We are making every effort to keep that avenue to legitimation to
> practice open.
>
> There have been advances in psychotherapy since Moreno.  We can learn from
> other modalities. In recent decades I have steeped myself in a few of
> them.  I have found the best way to think of the learning is of it as
> enriching my psychodramatic practice.  Psychodrama, i.e. all
> Moranian methods are a potent way of seeing the world and can incorporate
> and amplify many ways of seeing.
>
> For all that, we should not be fundamentalists.  Moreno like Marx, Freud
> had a way of seeing the world.  To use any of these perspectives requires
> decades of study and practice, and then the humility to see that there are
> many ways.
>
> Warm wishes
>
> Walter
>
> Walter Logeman
> Psychotherapist
> Harakeke Centre
> Christchurch
> New Zealand
> 021 271 0610
> walter at psybernet.co.nz
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11 April 2017 at 15:50, Adam Blatner <adam at blatner.com> wrote:
>
>> Rob Pramann of Utah has posted some very useful papers that seem worthy of
>> being read by students of psychodrama.
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>> ?Here's ?
>> a list of research that went support to psychodrama. Here is a link to it
>> on my agency's website. Here is the section of the website words posted
>> http://cccutah.org/articles.htm .
>>
>>
>>  Here is the page in HTML format http://cccutah.org/eprr.htm . It is also
>> available in Word and PDF format too.
>>
>>
>>
>> Rob Pramann, PhD, ABPP, TEP, BCPCC, CGP
>>
>> Clinical Director, Christian Counseling Centers Of Utah
>>
>> Executive Editor, The Journal of Psychodrama, Sociometry, and Group
>> Psychotherapy
>> Fellow, American Society of Group Psychotherapy and Psychodrama
>>
>> Board Certified in Group Psychology
>>
>> ABE Certified Trainer, Educator and Practitioner of Psychodrama
>>
>> IBCC Certified Professional Christian Counselor
>>
>> IBCGP Certified Group Psychotherapist
>>
>> ASCH Approved Consultant in Clinical Hypnosis
>>
>> Mailing address: 525 E. 4500 S., Suite 125, Salt Lake City, Utah
>> 84107-2995
>>
>> Email address:  utahssccc at aol.com
>>
>> Website: www.cccutah.org
>>
>> Phone:  (801) 268-1564 x13 <(801)%20268-1564> (Tel); (801) 268-1565 (Fax)
>>
>> [image: Rob Pramann PhD ABPP][image: Rob Pramann PhD ABPP]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Members [mailto:members-bounces at asgpplistserv.org] *On Behalf Of
>> *Adam
>> Blatner via Members
>> *Sent:* Monday, April 10, 2017 1:42 PM
>> *To:* Grouptalk <list at grouptalkweb.org>; asgpp listserve <
>> members at asgpplistserv.org>
>> *Subject:* the goals of psychodrama
>>
>>
>>
>> Nina (Antonina) Garcia in a recent interview said, ? One of the gifts of
>> psychodrama is that it can be adapted for use in a variety of fields.
>> Sociodrama, a less personal modality than psychodrama is particularly
>> ideal
>> for use in non-clinical settings. I used it to train state and county
>> police for 12 years; to train librarians and census takers; to work with
>> incarcerated youths; and as a rehearsal technique in many plays I directed
>> over the years.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nina goes on: ?I'm not unique in this. Psychodramatists train lawyers,
>> physicians, corporate executives and workers, those who work in banks,
>> stores, hospitality and for our nation's Secret Service. They also work in
>> education teaching many things, such as social skills, anti-bullying, and
>> coping with teenage pregnancy. Psychodrama and its partners, sociodrama
>> and
>> sociometry can go anywhere to help heal individuals, groups and,
>> ultimately, the world."
>>
>>
>>
>> My (Adam's) point  is that indeed, psychodrama is, as Moreno said in the
>> opening line of his major work (his Magnum Opus, in Latin),  ?a truly
>> useful procedure.? As such, it has applications both in the medical model
>> and in the general societry. In the former, though, there are increasing
>> constraints. It was possible for Moreno to think of social improvement as
>> therapy, but that word, therapy, means something far more restrictive
>> today.
>>
>>
>>
>> For one thing, the world?s problems should not be viewed as ?sickness? and
>> no physician knows really what?s the ?healthy solution.? Our awareness of
>> the complexity of life has advanced so that the medical model is far too
>> simple. It?s not as if we are ?sick? and any professional knows how we
>> should bet ?better.?  Politics is highly complex and our species as a
>> whole
>> is advancing in its technological potential beyond our psychology or
>> philosophy can act as guides.
>>
>>
>>
>> We must recognize that we don?t know the answers, nor may we claim to have
>> methods that will give us the final answers. Maybe we have some tools that
>> can help, and that?s something. A little humility is called for.
>>
>>
>>
>> The second point is that psychodrama as therapy is being increasingly
>> challenged by third-party-payors as being insufficiently evidence-based.
>> That?s because a significant portion of what psychodrama can treat or help
>> may be better treated by medicines or other therapies. Lumping together
>> treatment and a useful tool for continuing education is a grave category
>> error. I?m advocating a conceptual divorce: Psychodrama as an aid to
>> treatment of that which is presently classified as a mental
>> disorder?itself
>> a rather controversial theme?and what I call ?action explorations? (really
>> applied psychodrama) in non-treatment-oriented contexts.
>>
>>
>>
>> Indeed, in this era of evidence-based evaluation of psychotherapies?itself
>> a rather dubious measure, but one that is, alas, dominant?the use of
>> Morenian approaches for non-therapy purposes is something rather
>> different.
>> For one thing, the levels of ego strength in the parties being assessed is
>> quite different. (Indeed, although there are exceptions, those with mental
>> illness tend to have significantly less ego strength or resilience than
>> normal or healthy people!)
>>
>>
>>
>> In other words, endeavors that are undertaken by healthy people are
>> qualitatively different from therapy?a distinction that was less apparent
>> in the heyday of psychoanalysis and the emergence of psychodrama?the
>> mid-1930s through the late 1940s.  During that time many psychoanalysts
>> ?and Moreno, too?overestimated the power and over-reached the
>> applicability
>> of their insights.
>>
>>
>>
>> As for me, I am turning my attention away from psychiatric treatments and
>> more towards applications beyond the medical model. I confess that I have
>> no special qualifications for this goal, other than to question anyone
>> else?s qualifications, either. It?s a risky business, but I don?t care.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Grouptalk mailing list
>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>
>>
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