Moral discourse

Walter Logeman walter at
Mon Aug 6 12:46:44 UTC 2018

Hi Phil, Bud, all

Phil, what a wonderful exposition and meditation on spontaneity.

Bud, I think you meant to say you liked Phil's response to my opening...
or was it my brief response to the podcast I linked to?

I found your opening paragraph a bit dense, but I think we are tuning into
the same stuff. I enjoy pondering your words... "the Who that may survive
is a network of social atoms".  I can usefully see that you think "the
notion of an entity called "an individual"  having a reality " is false and
even evil.

Let me reflect and play with these ideas...

I go around saying the individual does not exist & stuff like that but
people object a lot...  And they quote Ken Wilber's quadrant model... I
think he is so unhelpful feeding the idea that there is an individual and
something called "inner"

The social atom is the smalest unit...  Yet we work with a protagonist, and
"their world". as if they were an entity that exists??

But then there is no protagonist without a group.  We live out our
reactions to reactions...  But then spontaneity comes in, that pinch god
drops in so we can put some vitality into the machine... I'm trying to
quote Moreno, here is the quote:

‘When God created the world He started off by making every being a machine.
He made one machine push the other and the whole universe ran like a
machine. That seemed to be comfortable, safe and smooth. But then He
thought it over. He smiled and put just an ounce of spontaneity into each
of the machines and this has made for endless trouble ever since—and for
endless enjoyment."

Somehow we can't get away from "beings". I guess its the perspective of
them "existing" independently of the sociometric matrix and social and
cultural atoms that is such a trap.

Even when I do psychodramatic work with "individuals" we quickly concretise
their "world"... I avoid all the time calling it the "inner" world.

Yet I put the word "world" in quotes...  I think for the same reason mtn
calls it the theatre of "truth".  We are scientists of a different order.

Putting an "inner" world on the stage - which is how I hear
some psychodramatists talk - is more Jungian and Freudian.  Those words
belong to paradigm Moreno fought so hard to shift. The world on the stage
is the product of the group, the warm up the auxiliaries the audience - it
is relational.  Sociometric.

More on this in "Who Shall Survive?” - a challenging passage, is Moreno
going all "inner"?
"Perhaps in an approach of the social universe we can learn from Democritos
and close our eyes to the actual configurations social "matter" presents to
us families, factories, schools, nations, etc. Perhaps a mind not
distracted by the gross facts in society will be able to discover the
smallest living social unit, itself not further divisible, the social

291 "Who Shall Survive?”


Apparently the link to the podast I mentioned did not work for everyone...
try this one:

Warm wishes


On 3 August 2018 at 18:32, Bud Weiss <bud.weiss at> wrote:

> I love your response Walter.
> Mine:
> Don't worry, be happy. Who Cares? "I" don't.
> This entire elegantly worded erudite conversation is based on the notion
> of an entity called "an individual"  having a reality and existing rather
> than an individual as a made up figment of the corruption of "Who Shall
> Survive" which occurred as the prime evil that was brought into being as
> one separated from the whole. "In the beginning there was the word." That
> was the conserve that allowed the evil to begin. The Who that may survive
> is a network of social atoms related to the network of infinite social
> atoms including all aspects of nature and the universe. "And Now we are
> One." The concluding statement to some indigenous tribal meetings.
> Moreno's God, the Cabalistic realization recreating itself in the *Words
> of the Father* scrawled in a manic fit across a castle's walls as is
> romantically related, was for me his young struggle to realizing the
> desperate experiencing of the enduring pain of separation begging to have
> it all reunited re-membering the state accessed by Einstein here:
> “A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part
> limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling
> as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his
> consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to
> our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our
> task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of
> compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its
> beauty.”... Einstein
> Psychodrama on going groups create community and as I see it, those are
> the true hope for the survival of the best gift we are as human beings.
> Be well together. Bud
> *Barnett J. Weiss, MA, LCSW , (Bud*) *Certified Advanced Trainer in the
> "Nurtured Heart Approach" *®
> * <>*
> * <>*
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> dissemination of information provided. Your health is in your own hands.*
> In addition, I'm neither a lawyer nor medical physician.  It should not be
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> On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 8:23 PM Walter Logeman <walter at>
> wrote:
>> Hi All
>> I found this talk useful to help me see that psychodrama is a form of
>> moral (how should we live?) discourse rather than related to
>> pathology.
>> Thing is it works with all those so called illnesses too - maybe
>> working with them is also a moral discourse?
>> Have a listen.
>> Warm wishes
>> Walter
>> Grouptalk mailing list
>> List at
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