No subject

M.K. Hudgins drkatetsi at
Fri Oct 1 11:23:45 UTC 2021

Dear Brendan 

Thanks for sharing more.  It is good to see the whole from many different ways and w different inputs equally valuable.  Moreno wasn’t very good as seeing others as contributors I don’t think.  His own god complex that he created all. 

What I have done with the question where does spontaneity come from is to use role theory n my clinical hat to create the trauma survivors internal role atom in a 3 stage model. 

In stage one of scene one of any TSM drama we prescribe roles that are needed n when enacted create a state of spontaneity where the person is in a stable state so they can they face their trauma safely. 

There are 8 prescriptive roles… a witness role, the TSM Body n Containing doubles, 3 types of strengths n a manager of defenses. 

When you find the right set of roles enacted n em livened anyone can find their state of spontaneity to make new n creative decisions.  
While I personally follow the Godhead as originally proposed by Mario… we have found a way to concretize spontaneity… regardless of where it actually comes from. 

As Moreno said…. The self emerges from the roles we play.  Teaching people the skills to stay in the present with resources through prescriptive roles is a clinical path to guide all Psychodrama’s n many people now enroll strengths whereas that surely was not the case when TSM first developed 1992-1995. 

Nice to have some interesting talk on Grouptalk.  

Thanks Ed for getting it started. 


Kate Hudgins, Ph,D, TEP
Therapeutic Spiral International

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 30, 2021, at 9:31 PM, edwschreiber at wrote:
> The Godhead.  The First Universe is the source of the spark we find.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 
> Sent: Sep 30, 2021 9:10 PM
> To: 
> Subject: undefined
> Hi Kate,
> Well spotted. 'Where does spontaneity come from?', is a key question for spontaneity-ists.
> Conventionally there are 4 answers.
> Answer 1) Is the answer of positivist-behaviorists. They [Parsons] contend it comes from the act of the
> actor. The Director-Producers instruction is, 'Do - Don't Think. Do'.
> And lo and behold a spontaneous act occurs. The problem with this impetuosity is the actor has to learn to
> live with the consequences of their act. Not always easy especially if the actor has a strong fight drive \
> impulse. It tends to look like a mob invading Capital-Hill and asking from inside the building, 'now what do
> we do?'
> Answer 2) is, 'spontaneity comes from the aboriginal onto-genetic Role developing within the actor'. This
> is the most common answer provided [taught] by IAGP as far as I can see. It seems to be Edward's
> answer as he seems to assume we each are conceived with a 'spontaneous atom' within us. This atom has
> quantum [sub-atomic] characteristics. Each atom then [re-] acts with other atoms to pattern the global
> social system as conglomerations of atoms. The problem with this theory is it is not very good at
> explaining intelligence other than a function of the 'individual creative genius [atom]'. The obvious question
> arises, 'what happens when you get 3 genius in the one room'. How can their individual genius intelligence
> be a collective? The Christian answer of course is The Trinity; three in one. But that is a bit abstract and
> overly symbolic for earthly actors. Its hard to see Trump and Putin and Xi admitting their intelligence is of
> their collectivity.
> Answer 3) is provided by Vygotsky who says the child fills [or at least tries to fill] the spontaneity gap
> between the two parents. Vygotsky spontaneity is thus conceived of a dynamic collective 3-way social
> intelligence. This seems to be a good resolution to the atomists' [individualists'] problems. Intelligence
> then becomes the lack of spontaneity between Trump and Putin and Xi when they are in the same room. It
> is of course a tragedy Moreno went to USA and not to Moscow where Jacob and Lev could have shared
> their ideas. JLM was needed in 2 places at once.
> Answer 4) is from Roy Bhaskar who posits that spontaneity comes from pure 'absence'. It is not so much
> that the child sees the gap between the parents intelligence \ spontaneity but that the parents know the
> gap is 'empty' in the sense that the gap can be filled with any 'potential'. Vygotsky of course focused on
> language such that the child fills in the words absent between the 2 parents. Bhaskar posits it is not only
> language that provides potentiality. Bhaskar's spontaneity can be pre-languaged such that it includes our
> non-verbal dreams and our hands [bodies] groping when our eyes and ears are closed. Bhaskar says
> answers 1-3 fall foul of the Epistemic Fallacy; which is to say the spontaneity they espouse assumes or
> anticipates certain forms. In respect to Moreno's quote, ' new response to an old situation or an adequate
> response to a new situation', the epistemic fallacy is enacted when the Director and Protagonist both have
> conserved ideas for what; 'new' and 'old' and 'adequate' actually mean when each of these are really only
> potentials which can mean any number of 'things' and things not fully able to be 'anticipated' \ enacted.
> Bhaskar's notion of 'Absence' makes framing practice [especially therapy] very difficult so in some ways
> the project is in a quagmire if not stalled. Some claim it is bedeviled by a form of utopianism. DCR
> prompts theory building rather than 'solutions'.
> Hope this inspires an Answer 5) or at least unpacks the dialectic some more.
> Best Til Next
> Brendan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: M.K. Hudgins
> Sent: Thursday, 30 September 2021 8:48 PM
> To: edwschreiber at
> Cc: cartmel at; list at
> Subject: Re: Psychodrama as Education for Life
> It’s interesting to see this dialectic.
> For me WSS is directly in the book “only the spontaneous shall survive”. His definition was behavioral in
> many ways when he defined spontaneity as a new response to an old situation or an adequate response to
> a new situation.
> Where the larger conversation you are all having is about where does spontaneity come from?
> Thanks. Kate
> Kate Hudgins, Ph,D, TEP
> Therapeutic Spiral International
> Grouptalk mailing list
> List at
> Grouptalk mailing list
> List at

More information about the List mailing list