<div dir="ltr"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">A quick
illustration of life as a four quadrant affair: </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Example:
Ed's uncle plight</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">_____________________________________________________________________________</p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: bold;">Subjective Objective </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: right;">- Ed's uncle feelings, emotions, thoughts;<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>-Neurophysiological correlations of the subjective experience</p><p class="MsoNormal">
<br></p><p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">- Edward Schreiber individual perspective<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>-The
objective event itself</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">- The concrete behavioural </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">responses to the event </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">____________________________________________________________________________</p>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: bold;">Intersubjective </span> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: bold;"> Interobjective<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: normal; "></span></span></div>
<div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: bold;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: normal; ">- Ed's uncle intersubjective environment<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>-US social
security structure</span></span></div><div style="text-align: right;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: bold;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: normal; ">- Financial crisis</span></span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">- The
sociometric relationships and status</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">_____________________________________________________________________________ </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal">Ken Wilber would say that any response to this issue without addressing this four fundamental perspectives would be dangerously reductionist. Economics - The dismal science - tends to built models and understand the economical life reducing all perspectives to the lower left quadrant, making rather poor assumptions (consciously and unconsciously) about the other 3 fundamental perspectives. For instance, the assumption about some rational man (no emotions, no intersubjective relationships, no culture). Also taking subjective or intersubjective interpretations without taking to account the underlying objective structures is also part of the problem of reductionism. After all we all born in an already created world and the objective structures are indeed very powerful.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ken Wilber talks of the need of an integral approach that makes an effort to embrace all perspectives. But this is only a framework, a meta theory, it is not the action method itself. So any attempt to compare Moreno to Ken Wilber is misleading in this regard.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">My intuitive perception about Sociatry methods is that they could put into practice this framework. But I also want to know something more specific about that...Ed?</p><p class="MsoNormal">Ivo</p><p class="MsoNormal">
<br></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 7:02 AM, Edward Schreiber <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:edwschreiber@earthlink.net">edwschreiber@earthlink.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
Dear Anath,<div>Thanks for your (much more than) 2 cents contribution.</div><div>I feel that in clear and precise terms you have given a profound and clear understanding of JL Morero's METHOD OF SEEING AND KNOWING what the world, these structures, and the solution - is all about. I am not a student of the Kaballah but I know Moreno was. I know that from Zerka.</div>
<div>And I suspect there is much, very much in the teachings of the Kaballah that will assist and help us to further refine our understanding of Moreno's method. He drew his inspiration from the great spiritual traditions, rather than biology - his method is a spiritual tradition, a path of awakening really. What else could it be? It invokes (and in fact provokes) the Godhead to show ITSELF to a group, it invites that emergence within the organism of the individual, and sociometry reveals the telic connections which when used with a Sociatric consciousness, reverses the sociodynamic effect in a small group, and then the Organic Unity emerges, moves people to a Unity. What more can we ask for! We have a method that is as sacred as any religious or spiritual tradition - and it belongs to humanity now! Much much much thanks for your 2 Million (vs. 2 cents) contribution! Ed<div>
<div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br><div><div>On Oct 13, 2008, at 11:00 PM, thana ag wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"> <font face="Arial" size="2">Dear Adam,Ed and all,<br><br>Adam:To say that Moreno found objective reality underlying all relations is extremely problematic. He noticed that rapport is an important dynamic that is worth attending to. This is no small contribution! I honor him for it and think this angle has yet to be fully developed.<br>
<br>Anath: perhaps a way to reconcile the statement that Moreno found an objective reality underlying all relations,by noticing that rapport ."tele" ,,is an underlying dynamic universally present -: would be to point out that if we consciously develop this "telic ability" and will resonate empathically with others,indeed we will discern a whole new underlying reality<br>
. Kabalah points out that there is where our evolution as species is headed,or else worse disasters than current ones,a result of human greed etc will befall us.It will necessitate us to "discover" our underlying unity,or whatever name we want to call it, and act accordingly. .But can we say that that universe existed before and by developing the "empathy" we were able to discern it,or that we co created it through our experience.?<br>
. <br>Here is my 2cents contribution<br>anath <br><br> </font> <div><font face="Arial" size="2"> <br></font></div><br><br><hr>From: <a href="mailto:ablatner@verizon.net" target="_blank">ablatner@verizon.net</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:edwschreiber@earthlink.net" target="_blank">edwschreiber@earthlink.net</a><br>Subject: structure versus reality<br>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:34:44 -0500<br>CC: <a href="mailto:list@grouptalkweb.org" target="_blank">list@grouptalkweb.org</a><br>
<br> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Dear Ed and all, </font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2"> We must differentiate <em>structure</em> and <em>reality</em>. At a certain level of philosophy, word meanings are not to be easily discounted as mere quibbling.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2"> I tend to hold with Ken Wilber's 4-quadrant view of reality that includes as real---not more or less real, but to be balanced in: </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> 1. Interior subjectivity 2. Inter-subjectivity, the "we," what we create and agree to; 3. Exterior objectivity--- cells, brains, physical buildings, planets</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> and 4. Objective collectivities: Associations, organizations, tribes. All exist, interpenetrate, influence each other and themselves at different levels.</font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> So my comment on structure invites us to differentiate between physical structure---actual threads in the spider web--- and realms of mind and society--- which, because of their many frames of reference and dimensions (humor, politics, economics, literature, drama, therapy, etc.) <em><strong>cannot have a clear structure</strong></em>. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> We may discern models to which we assign metaphors, seeming structures, but close inspection shows areas of blurring, overlap, and contexts in which our model doesn't adequately work. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2"> So I don't deny external reality or circumstances. I do call into question our <em>interpretations</em> of these (quadrant numbers 1 and 2, and a little number 4) , as these may shift with viewpoint and history, for example. They may be useful---our imagined structures--- but they are still mental co-creations... </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2"> To say that Moreno found objective reality underlying all relations is extremely problematic. He noticed that rapport is an important dynamic that is worth attending to. This is no small contribution! I honor him for it and think this angle has yet to be fully developed. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> </font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2"> Now the uncle example and money---ah, money! Money is such a good example of the overlap between quadrants 2 and 4, especially: the intersubjective (what you and I think something is worth) and the collective (what "they" think it's worth, and how it gets measured, negotiated, exchanged---the whole ambiguous realm of economics.)</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> One reason economics has been called the dismal science is that fixed structures that apply to all contexts are hard to pin down and get general consensus. Often they betray underlying political biases. There are some more resilient principles, some less so--- are there any structures in the general realms of economics? Debatable. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> (Even the structured packages that contain problematic mortgages are structures only of current laws, regulations, standards, expectations, and so forth.)</font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> To think that slapping a label of the SDE (sociodynamic effect) on it adequately or even partially explains anything --- well, maybe it does, but as yet I haven't seen a cogent explanation. (Nor does the label of schizophrenia explain the complex and still mysterious phenomena attending that condition.) Labels don't explain that much. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2"> Ed, I appreciate your enthusiasm. And perhaps you really see more specifics in among your generalities than I have been able to discern. But until these are pointed out, well, I have difficulty appreciating Moreno's writings as more than general envisionings in directions that (for the most part) evoke my sympathy.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2"> Sorry to hear about your uncle's plight, by the way. I fear we may hear many more stories like this as various relatives and friends begin to share their stories. He's lucky to have a caring nephew.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Warmly, Adam</font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div> <blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding-right:0px;padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px">
<div style="font-family:arial;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:10pt;line-height:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal">----- Original Message ----- </div> <div style="background:rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 50%;font-family:arial;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:10pt;line-height:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal">
<b>From:</b> <a title="edwschreiber@earthlink.net" href="mailto:edwschreiber@earthlink.net" target="_blank">Edward Schreiber</a> </div> <div style="font-family:arial;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:10pt;line-height:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal">
<b>To:</b> <a title="list@grouptalkweb.org" href="mailto:list@grouptalkweb.org" target="_blank">Grouptalk Listserv</a> </div> <div style="font-family:arial;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:10pt;line-height:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 13, 2008 2:30 PM</div> <div style="font-family:arial;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:10pt;line-height:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal"><b>Subject:</b> What is Real?</div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><br></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="6"><span style="font-size:21px">Dear Colleagues,</span></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="6"><span style="font-size:21px"><br></span></font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="6"><span style="font-size:21px">Sorry for a delay in responding to this thread of emails, a worthy conversation for sure. I had some family issues - an 89 year old Uncle ran out of money in the collapse of the economy - and so family had to be brought together. I want to respond to Adam Blatner's comments:</span></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="6"><span style="font-size:21px"><br></span></font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="6"><span style="font-size:21px">AB: "This dialectical tension between two ideas is also present in Moreno's claim that society "has" a structure. There is no out-there objective structure, and one might well argue (as have a number of philosophers, at length) that it is misleading to imagine that objectivity is a sufficient way of thinking about reality---it denies our co-creative structuring of reality via our own consciousness!" </span></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="6"><span style="font-size:21px"></span></font> </div> <div><font face="Arial" size="6"><span style="font-size:21px"> <div><font style="font-family:Arial;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:21px;line-height:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal" face="Arial" size="6">"The political implications are that we must resist becoming over-inflated and grandiose (and resist unconsciously imitating Moreno), but rather we should explore ways we can implement various models and create new ones."</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div><div><br></div> <div><font style="font-family:Arial;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:21px;line-height:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal" face="Arial" size="6">"The problems with some of these concepts is that they generate great ambition while delivering elusive actual methods (except those that which can be used by individuals and in small groups of willing and educated participants)." </font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div> <div><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div> <div>I agree that there is a subject nature to what we each experience as real. This subjectivity is what we bring to our work and our lives. To suggest that there is "no out-there objective structure" is a bit concerning. The objective structure for me this last week was that Uncle E., in New Rochelle NY has social security income that is 1/3 of his present expenses. This income was supported with dividends from stocks that Seniors (once) felt would help them in their final years of their lives. Not the case for the working poor. The task, in my experience with it all, is to tease out my subjective response to these objective realities. The quick-melt of the polar caps is an objective reality. The fact that in one week an 89 year old writer living alone in New York State found his life's savings gone - is both objective and subjective. The world and its structures are real. Our subjective realities - in response to the world - impact our own physiological, biological, spiritual, emotional realities. </div>
<div><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div> <div>The fact that J.L. Moreno FOUND objective reality underlying and determining all groups, all systems, all societies - has led me to pierce my own subjective reaction, to highten my consciousness ---- and yes ---- to determine a course of action. In years past, as a social scientist my concern was on the systems in collapse of the natural world. At first the dying bee population REALLY caught my attention, as have the polar shifts, polar melts, polar bears, changing climates, fires in California, draughts in Africa, and the vanished clean water in many places around the Globe.</div>
<div><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div> <div>Dr. Moreno's writings (in almost all his works) have pointed to this objective reality of human civilization, the sociodynamic effect. The long awakening of seeing this objective reality has been for me as for most of us, been experience and observed, witnessed and experienced through the filters that our subjective minds have formed as a way to make meaning to this objective reality. </div>
<div><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div> <div>I just do buy the notion that subjectivity is real and objective reality is not. The sociodynamic effect is everywhere. Where did my Uncle's 285. dollars vanish to? Did it just evaporate? Did it, this sum, find its way to a black hole? Sure, the value of "a stock" became of less value - and of course I and all my family have had subjective reactions - but this sucking of resources away from the many is not only subjective, it is real - it is in the world - it is the nature of the civilization in which we are living.</div>
<div><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div> <div>On the other side of this same coin is the potential to "co-create" something new. That I fully agree - but new in what way? To see the world through the lens of the sociodynamic effect has made objective reality clearer - less muddied with overlays of explanation that in the end simply explain away this sociodynamic effect. We are at a great moment in humanity's history, don't you think? For most of humanity's short stay, the sociodynamic effect impacted all social groupings, all nations - emerging in cultures, histories, conflicts, and peace. The reversal of the sociodynamic effect the same. </div>
<div><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div> <div>The nature of the Organic Unity of Humanity (connected to the Source animating every sentient life) is another reality, seemingly throughout history. Jesus, Gandhi, </div>
<div>Martin Luther King, Lincoln, on and on - were sociometrists bringing forward "A New Earth" (as Eckhardt Tolle notes) but now we, humanity, are in the end stage of the sociodynamic effect with nature and the earth itself, or at least that is what some of the enviornmental sciences suggest. For example, how can 3 percent of the human family use 28 percent of all the resources? Can we sustain this? At whose expense? Those stripped of resources, will they survive? </div>
<div><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div> <div>The point is, for me, JL Moreno's GRANDIOSE understanding is a clear Zen-like template to see the world. I love standing with him in that - it gives me a sense of the world less confused with political positions. I used to be very upset about all this, still am, but as this organic unity emerges, and I feel this, see this, Know this directly - I see the transformaitonal seeds being planted and growing.</div>
<div><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div> <div>I do not know a more precise presentation of reality - than that of JL Moreno.</div> <div><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div> <div>
Best,</div> <div><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div> <div>Edward Schreiber</div> <div><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div><div><font style="font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:24px;line-height:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal" face="Helvetica" size="6"></font> <br>
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