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<font face="Arial" size="2">Dear Adam,Ed and all,<br><br>Adam:To say that Moreno found
objective reality underlying all relations is extremely problematic. He noticed
that rapport is an important dynamic that is worth attending to. This is no
small contribution! I honor him for it and think this angle has yet to be fully
developed.<br><br>Anath: perhaps a way to reconcile the statement that Moreno found an objective reality underlying all relations,by noticing that rapport ."tele" ,,is an underlying dynamic universally present -: would be to point out that if we consciously develop this "telic ability" and will resonate empathically with others,indeed we will discern a whole new underlying reality<br>. Kabalah points out that there is where our evolution as species is headed,or else worse disasters than current ones,a result of human greed etc will befall us.It will necessitate us to "discover" our underlying unity,or whatever name we want to call it, and act accordingly. .But can we say that that universe existed before and by developing the "empathy" we were able to discern it,or that we co created it through our experience.?<br>. <br>Here is my 2cents contribution<br>anath <br><br> </font>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> <br></font></div><br><br><hr>From: ablatner@verizon.net<br>To: edwschreiber@earthlink.net<br>Subject: structure versus reality<br>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:34:44 -0500<br>CC: list@grouptalkweb.org<br><br>
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Dear Ed and all, </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> We must
differentiate <em>structure</em> and <em>reality</em>. At a certain level of
philosophy, word meanings are not to be easily discounted as mere
quibbling.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> I tend to hold with Ken Wilber's
4-quadrant view of reality that includes as real---not more or less real, but to
be balanced in: </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> 1. Interior
subjectivity 2. Inter-subjectivity, the "we," what we create
and agree to; 3. Exterior objectivity--- cells, brains, physical
buildings, planets</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> and 4. Objective collectivities:
Associations, organizations, tribes. All exist, interpenetrate,
influence each other and themselves at different levels.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> So my comment on
structure invites us to differentiate between physical structure---actual
threads in the spider web--- and realms of mind and society--- which, because of
their many frames of reference and dimensions (humor, politics, economics,
literature, drama, therapy, etc.) <em><strong>cannot have a clear
structure</strong></em>. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> We may discern
models to which we assign metaphors, seeming structures, but close inspection
shows areas of blurring, overlap, and contexts in which our model doesn't
adequately work. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> So I don't deny
external reality or circumstances. I do call into question our
<em>interpretations</em> of these (quadrant numbers 1 and 2, and a little number
4) , as these may shift with viewpoint and history, for example. They may be
useful---our imagined structures--- but they are still mental co-creations...
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> To say that Moreno found
objective reality underlying all relations is extremely problematic. He noticed
that rapport is an important dynamic that is worth attending to. This is no
small contribution! I honor him for it and think this angle has yet to be fully
developed. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> Now the uncle example and
money---ah, money! Money is such a good example of the overlap between
quadrants 2 and 4, especially: the intersubjective (what you and I think
something is worth) and the collective (what "they" think it's worth, and how it
gets measured, negotiated, exchanged---the whole ambiguous realm of
economics.)</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> One
reason economics has been called the dismal science is that fixed structures
that apply to all contexts are hard to pin down and get general consensus. Often
they betray underlying political biases. There are some more resilient
principles, some less so--- are there any structures in the general realms of
economics? Debatable. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> (Even the
structured packages that contain problematic mortgages are structures only of
current laws, regulations, standards, expectations, and so forth.)</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> To think that
slapping a label of the SDE (sociodynamic effect) on it adequately or even
partially explains anything --- well, maybe it does, but as yet I haven't seen a
cogent explanation. (Nor does the label of schizophrenia explain the complex and
still mysterious phenomena attending that condition.) Labels don't explain
that much. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> Ed, I appreciate
your enthusiasm. And perhaps you really see more specifics in among your
generalities than I have been able to discern. But until these are pointed out,
well, I have difficulty appreciating Moreno's writings as more than general
envisionings in directions that (for the most part) evoke my
sympathy.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> Sorry to hear
about your uncle's plight, by the way. I fear we may hear many more stories like
this as various relatives and friends begin to share their stories. He's lucky
to have a caring nephew.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Warmly, Adam</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="edwschreiber@earthlink.net" href="mailto:edwschreiber@earthlink.net">Edward Schreiber</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a title="list@grouptalkweb.org" href="mailto:list@grouptalkweb.org">Grouptalk Listserv</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 13, 2008 2:30
PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b> What is Real?</div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><br></div>
<div style=""><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="6"><span class="EC_Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 21px;">Dear
Colleagues,</span></font></div>
<div style=""><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="6"><span class="EC_Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 21px;"><br></span></font></div>
<div style=""><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="6"><span class="EC_Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 21px;">Sorry for a delay in responding
to this thread of emails, a worthy conversation for sure. I had some
family issues - an 89 year old Uncle ran out of money in the collapse of the
economy - and so family had to be brought together. I want to respond
to Adam Blatner's comments:</span></font></div>
<div style=""><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="6"><span class="EC_Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 21px;"><br></span></font></div>
<div style=""><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="6"><span class="EC_Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 21px;">AB: "This dialectical tension
between two ideas is also present in Moreno's claim that society "has" a
structure. There is no out-there objective structure, and one might well argue
(as have a number of philosophers, at length) that it is misleading to imagine
that objectivity is a sufficient way of thinking about reality---it denies our
co-creative structuring of reality via our own
consciousness!" </span></font></div>
<div style=""><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="6"><span class="EC_Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 21px;"></span></font> </div>
<div style=""><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="6"><span class="EC_Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 21px;">
<div style=""><font style="font-family: Arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 21px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;" face="Arial" size="6">"The
political implications are that we must resist becoming over-inflated and
grandiose (and resist unconsciously imitating Moreno), but rather we should
explore ways we can implement various models and create new
ones."</font></div>
<div style=""><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div>
<p style=""></p>
<div style=""><font style="font-family: Arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 21px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;" face="Arial" size="6">"The
problems with some of these concepts is that they generate great ambition
while delivering elusive actual methods (except those that which can be used
by individuals and in small groups of willing and educated
participants)." </font></div>
<div style=""><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div>
<div style=""><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div>
<div style="">I agree that there is a subject nature to what we
each experience as real. This subjectivity is what we bring to our work
and our lives. To suggest that there is "no out-there objective
structure" is a bit concerning. The objective structure for me this last
week was that Uncle E., in New Rochelle NY has social security income that is
1/3 of his present expenses. This income was supported with dividends
from stocks that Seniors (once) felt would help them in their final years of
their lives. Not the case for the working poor. The task, in my
experience with it all, is to tease out my subjective response to these
objective realities. The quick-melt of the polar caps is an objective
reality. The fact that in one week an 89 year old writer living alone in
New York State found his life's savings gone - is both objective and
subjective. The world and its structures are real. Our subjective
realities - in response to the world - impact our own physiological,
biological, spiritual, emotional realities. </div>
<div style=""><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div>
<div style="">The fact that J.L. Moreno FOUND objective reality
underlying and determining all groups, all systems, all societies - has led me
to pierce my own subjective reaction, to highten my consciousness ---- and yes
---- to determine a course of action. In years past, as a social
scientist my concern was on the systems in collapse of the natural world.
At first the dying bee population REALLY caught my attention, as have
the polar shifts, polar melts, polar bears, changing climates, fires in
California, draughts in Africa, and the vanished clean water in many places
around the Globe.</div>
<div style=""><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div>
<div style="">Dr. Moreno's writings (in almost all his works) have
pointed to this objective reality of human civilization, the sociodynamic
effect. The long awakening of seeing this objective reality has been for
me as for most of us, been experience and observed, witnessed and experienced
through the filters that our subjective minds have formed as a way to make
meaning to this objective reality. </div>
<div style=""><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div>
<div style="">I just do buy the notion that subjectivity is real
and objective reality is not. The sociodynamic effect is
everywhere. Where did my Uncle's 285. dollars vanish to? Did it
just evaporate? Did it, this sum, find its way to a black hole?
Sure, the value of "a stock" became of less value - and of course I and
all my family have had subjective reactions - but this sucking of resources
away from the many is not only subjective, it is real - it is in the world -
it is the nature of the civilization in which we are living.</div>
<div style=""><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div>
<div style="">On the other side of this same coin is the potential
to "co-create" something new. That I fully agree - but new in what way?
To see the world through the lens of the sociodynamic effect has made
objective reality clearer - less muddied with overlays of explanation that in
the end simply explain away this sociodynamic effect. We are at a great
moment in humanity's history, don't you think? For most of humanity's
short stay, the sociodynamic effect impacted all social groupings, all nations
- emerging in cultures, histories, conflicts, and peace. The reversal of
the sociodynamic effect the same. </div>
<div style=""><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div>
<div style="">The nature of the Organic Unity of Humanity
(connected to the Source animating every sentient life) is another reality,
seemingly throughout history. Jesus, Gandhi, </div>
<div style="">Martin Luther King, Lincoln, on and on - were
sociometrists bringing forward "A New Earth" (as Eckhardt Tolle notes) but now
we, humanity, are in the end stage of the sociodynamic effect with nature and
the earth itself, or at least that is what some of the enviornmental sciences
suggest. For example, how can 3 percent of the human family use 28
percent of all the resources? Can we sustain this? At whose
expense? Those stripped of resources, will they survive? </div>
<div style=""><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div>
<div style="">The point is, for me, JL Moreno's GRANDIOSE
understanding is a clear Zen-like template to see the world. I love standing
with him in that - it gives me a sense of the world less confused with
political positions. I used to be very upset about all this, still am,
but as this organic unity emerges, and I feel this, see this, Know this
directly - I see the transformaitonal seeds being planted and growing.</div>
<div style=""><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div>
<div style="">I do not know a more precise presentation of reality
- than that of JL Moreno.</div>
<div style=""><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div>
<div style="">Best,</div>
<div style=""><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><br></div>
<div style="">Edward Schreiber</div>
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