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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Dear Ivo, sorry, I find your effort at being
specific to be a weaving of more abstract ideals. For example regarding
your example: Specifically what would you imagine anyone doing regarding the
financial crisis? Is there any even rationally proposed evidence that
identifies one step in this that is unequivocally affected by anything
psychodramatic, sociometric, etc.--- (Of course we can say, oh, if only
politicians were more deeply concerned about the plight of the
people...)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> We must remember, though, that
many people in this catastrophe were greedy and childishly gullible---both those
who sold the mortgages and those who bought them. Who are the innocent victims
and what specifically (oh I am so sorry for harping on this nasty word) do you
suggest to remedy the problem? Should those who were foolish and greedy be
allowed so suffer the consequences of their folly? If not, what else would you
propose? </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ibanaco@gmail.com href="mailto:ibanaco@gmail.com">Ivo Banaco</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=adam@blatner.com
href="mailto:adam@blatner.com">Adam Blatner</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=list@grouptalkweb.org
href="mailto:list@grouptalkweb.org">list@grouptalkweb.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: sociatry ideas</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Hi Adam and all,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I understand your concerns about the excessive abstraction. In any given
area in politics for example I could give you several examples of how the
tools generated by psychodrama, sociodrama and for that matter all the so
called "consciousness movement" could help. The problem with the specifics is
that they could easily loose track of the more general concern of this group.
Loosing the forest for a tree is a risk that I don't want to take either. But
OK, let's go for it. I will give you a specific...:-)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The US economic crisis:</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Look to the unemployment numbers: about 15 million, a historical number
by any standard - 2 years ago unemployment was at more or less 7 million
people. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> ab
irrelevant</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Most of the money is being spent in the rebuilding of
the financial system and in some highly questionable economic
projects.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
Name which ones are questionable; describe the consequences of refusing to do
this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>There are no tools given to politicians, to my knowledge, that help them
to look beyond the numbers. Why the financial system broke? If we can see
beyond we can look to the financial theatre, the actors, the spontaneity (or
the lack of it), the reactivity, the lack of reason, the exuberance, the
egoistic approach, etc.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> remember
greed and the willingness to cheat, to almost cheat, to fudge the truth, to
say you earn more than you do, to promise unrealistically</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> but that's not my point. The problem with
spontaneity is that the Morenian definition begs the question: an effective
response to an old situation (is part of the definition) -- but we don't know
what will be in fact effective. So the argument is circular. If the
politicians had true spontaneity they'd be automatically wise. And of course
(saying this sarcastically) we know how to teach them that.
Right.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2
face=Arial> </FONT> What
is being done? Simply is being delivered a lot of money to the same guys
with the same instruments to mess it up again.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> aB: I kind of agree with you
here and am not sure of the actual rationale. It does seem
foolish.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> IB </FONT> What could be
done? A fundamental intervention, one that can combine all the good stuff that
was created (that become possible, for example, to spread the risk, turning
some important assets like houses more affordable to poor families - the
so called subprime families, etc) with what I would call the subjective and
inter-subjective interventions.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2
face=Arial> AB: I am
totally bewildered by this---haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking
about! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> How spread the risk?
what does that mean? How does this deal with anything Morenian? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> IB </FONT> Any
important player in the market must have skills beyond its
obvious technical abilities.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Intersubjective skills, emotional intelligence and so. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2
face=Arial>
name one and show how it would apply. Otherwise </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>They are wonderful and highly respected scientific literature supporting
this (like Howard Gardner multiple intelligences). But this is a major and
complex educational problem. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> This is the problem--- and almost a
cop-out; it's like saying if people could be smart, we'd solve
things. But it's not clear that smart people who were psychologically minded
would have any ideas that you don't have. So I await more
specifics.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Our societies gave over the years an increasingly value to cognitive
skills that yes, it's true, helped to
promote technological progress and material well being. But today we
all know that this is not enough and could be danger not only to a particular
nation but to the world at large. Society as a whole must gave
(urgently I would say) value to several dimensions of the human being.
Today an educated man and woman that will go leading business,
families, political affairs must have a new sensibility and see
things that others are blind to. Psychodrama courses for example could be a
priority education project combined with the core training of a given
person.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> ab:
see point above. You're implying that holistically enlightened people would be
more effective than non-holistically-psychologically enlightened people.
sounds plausible, but you haven't made the case that knowing sociometry,
psychodrama, or anything Moreno taught---which, though I value it---I'm not
yet willing to make serious claims for--- will be proven to do a better job.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> as you say,
it's a complex problem...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> All psychological literacy (a wonderful term that I get from you)
is important to all leaders not in order to absolutize that particular type of
knowledge but to give it the place that is deserved (this is particularly
important, because to absolutize one dimension of life is a big mistake and a
very easy one to make). </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2
face=Arial> </FONT>A
"sociatric politician" would have that in the primordial agenda and not just
in footnotes don't you think? </DIV>
<DIV> AB: I can't disagree, because it's so general. You're saying that
a politician who is psychologically sensitive and aware would do a better job.
I would like to agree, but any scientific or even simply rational person would
require you to break the whole idea down into very very specific competencies;
test whether each one is very or only slightly relevant to the goal task; and
assess how much knowing Morenian stuff makes a difference in policy
development. Lacking that tight, meticulous analysis, you're free
to make any claims you like and they can't be disproven. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> IB In a tomorrow's world a economic crisis
would not be compensate with 7 new million job loss. We
would easily know the tremendous impact at all subjective and intersubjective
levels in a family or in a person (emotional, financial, and all the
imbalances caused by the situation).</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> AB: Is
subjective and intersubjective the latest in psychobabble terms? What about
bio-psycho-social, or is that too outdated? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> Who is the we, how would we know it, the
impact at all subjective levels-- can we know the impact of ANYTHING at ALL
subjective levels? We as outsiders or as the person feeling
it? etc. And who would the people be who are
intersubjectively interacting, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> A business leader would try to reformulate their business with
their human resources in a different way.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
ab: name one specific example</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> People would not be just a number. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
That implies that all managers or politicians (not most but all) are treating
people only as numbers. An easy claim, but not if you interview them or look
at the situation closely. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> Things would be worked
out differently. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> This is the kind
of argument that says in effect that if people would be smarter, they'd be
better, and then everything would be better. It's unprovable and I can't
imagine one specific example of what you're talking about.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> This is the point of
concretization, of setting a scene in psychodrama. Clients in talk therapy
tend to talk this way, generalities. We need to cut through abstractions and
find out what the actual situation is. If I can't imagine a concrete example I
really don't know what you're talking about and it is possible that in
believing your own abstractions you're weaving a web of self-delusion that
works for you, satisfies your feelings of coherence. Lots of folks live this
way----believing in the web or network of loosely assembled platitudes.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> </FONT>For example
with the natural and frequent use of psychodrama and sociodrama tools
other reality surplus would come out, creativity would be raised and solutions
be found. Creativity is not just faith or utopia or wishful thinking. It's an
endogenous power of the human being that have to be recognize. </DIV>
<DIV> AB:
well, sure. That's kind of my point: I think that as psychological literacy in
general penetrates the culture that there may be a development of mental
flexibility and the foundations of more consciousness can be built on
this---but it would require a thousand other components---political,
technical, economic, etc.---also part of the growing infrastructure--- and it
will likely take generations if not centuries. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
IB </FONT>This is just some quick and not worked thoughts about
specific applications in business, leadership, social values and above all
education. This is just not just about being aware that psychology and
consciousness are important matters to social life. This is about how to
integrate in the social activities all the good knowledge that We are being
finding without loosing all the good practices that part of what we do
already.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
aB: The question is whether staying at the level of affirming ideals is a lot
more effective than the obviously more illusory song verse below.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>IB The challenges of the integration of the new to a well stablish
cultural conserve it's the challenge of life itself, I believe. Some
of you guys in grouptalk should have an important voice in political decision
making in this crisis. AB: What do you mean "should"? Which
ones of us? </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>IB Have Obama called you to ask an opinion? Do you care at all or
just keep just wondering like in the Dave Mathews's song: </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: rgb(101,101,101); FONT-SIZE: 14px"
class=Apple-style-span>"Tell me everything will be OK if I just stay on my
knees and keep praying believing in something
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: rgb(101,101,101); FONT-SIZE: 14px"
class=Apple-style-span>Tell me everything is all taken care of by those
qualified to take care of it all." </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> AB: I'm reminded
of the anecdote of JLM doing one of his first Theatre of Spontaneity, inviting
the audience members to come up and be king, and help the chaotic and
struggling remnants of the Austro-Hungarian Empire to find a way to
accommodate to the changes and realities of the post WWI
world. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> If Obama called me and asked
my opinion, I'd have a few things to say, but they'd be pretty obvious and
easily arguable. Nor am I sure that I'm ultimately "right" or smarter than
him. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>All the best, Ivo ab: enough. talk to
you later. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>PS: About the word Sociatry. What I find is that <B><I><SPAN
style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
class=Apple-style-span>iatros</SPAN></I></B>, is indeed a physician but iatry
comes from<B><I><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
class=Apple-style-span> iatreia</SPAN></I></B> and that is not the healer is
the heal itself...and if it is true (and I'm not a specialist) will make all
the difference... </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2
face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2
face=Arial></FONT><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Adam Blatner <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:ablatner@verizon.net">ablatner@verizon.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Dear Ivo and all, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> 1. </FONT>August 10,
IB: Right Adam, but feeling that your point 4 misleading. In WSS Moreno
finds the root of Sociatry in WSS in Socius - the other fellow and iatreia -
healing; </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> AB: sorry for the
pedantry but I looked it up: Iatros is physician from
iasthai ancient greek for heal... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2
face=Arial> socius Latin
companion </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> 2. IB All of Moreno's ideas tried to fight the
doctor-patient model, and I don't think that sociatry relate to that at
all, although I can see your point.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2
face=Arial> AB: Startling
statement, unclear how that seems so for you. There's a little bit of truth
re his wanting less authoritative group psychotherapy, but his behavior at
his sanatarium was quite in keeping with the doctor-patient model.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
3. IB</FONT> But I admit this is a matter of taste, like your
dislike about tele.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> AB: Please don't give people the
impression that I dislike tele, but rather think that while the dynamic is
of central importance in a more holistic psychology, the term perhaps might
be better understood by non-psychodramatists if called something else, such
as rapport. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> 4.
IB </FONT> For me Sociatry calls for a higher level of
intervention in society, a inter/ trans disciplinary approach to
the socius with a fundamental emphasis to treat it. Quoting Moreno. "The art
and skill of the sociatrist will depend upon a synthesis of knowledge toward
which all social and psychiatric sciences will have made their
contribution." And that doesn't exist yet as such, but we have all the
ingredients...we have to cook them!<SPAN> </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN> AB: Fine, when
you've cooked up something specific let us know. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN> 5 IB Of course we can always question:
If that is so what is the difference between sociatry and
politics. It should be none but it is not the case at this moment. What
sociatry could bring to politics is a type of knowledge (e.g.
sociometry, group dynamics, all the invisible structures, cultural bias,
etc,) that seems to escape most of politicians today. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN> AB: Sure, it's nice to imagine
that our political leaders could know all sorts of things and that this
would help, but can you give a single example of how a political leader
would act differently, think differently, knowing the above? I'm not saying
they wouldn't, but integrating knowledge and ranking its relevance is a
problem.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN> More, it
is unrealistic to just dump all we know into an expert's lap and expect the
expert to know how to pick out what is more or less relevant. (It's
surprising how many less-experienced psychotherapists or psychiatrists will
present a case by dumping out information in such a way as to demonstrate
they they haven't begun to sort out what is more or less important---see my
paper on my website on the art of case presentation.)</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN> </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN> 6. </SPAN><SPAN>In the future Sociatry
could well be the real political action.. why not as sociatry could not
exist as such (if it aims a large scale social intervention) without
politics? AB: The problem is giving more specifics, more definition:
One could also say "Makingbetter" will be the real sociatry, which would
also be the real political action. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT size=2 face=Arial> Perhaps this quibbling about terms
is unnecessary. I certainly want to support enthusiasm, and the belief that
our field has important tools to introduce into the mainline of the culture.
I have put this idea into many of my writings. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT size=2
face=Arial>
But an excess of abstraction just might evoke a counter-reaction, the
appellation of "psychobabble," or some such, so I occasionally comment on
this.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
</FONT></SPAN>Best, Ivo AB And good wishes to you...
</DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
lang=EN-GB>"The term derives from a Latin and Greek root, the one is socius,
the “other fellow”, the other iatreia, healing." see
above... </SPAN><BR><BR></DIV>
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<DIV class=im>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Adam Blatner <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:ablatner@verizon.net"
target=_blank>ablatner@verizon.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Okay, let's see. The world is in trouble in
thousands of different ways at many levels. What can "sociatry" do?
Which methods are useful with groups beyond the sick role? (i.e., beyond
psychotherapy). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> 1. Starting
small: Consider the feminist notion that the personal is political and
reverse it. In the 1970s the institution of the happy nuclear family was
questioned. Might it for some be a prison? Questioning social
arrangements is one example. Could therapy include social action? Groups
whose task is to change more than the consciousness of its own members
generate new types of group dynamics, concerning as how
best to accomplish its chosen tasks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> 2. Recognize that
sociometry and psychodramatic methods constitute at most only 23.2% of
the many different kinds of skills and knowledge involved in
social action. Things like composing an effective letter, lobbying,
etc. --- there are hundreds or thousands of such components that
transcend any particular discipline--- including the skill bases of
rhetoric, advertising, spin-doctoring, propaganda, all the elements of
politics, lobbying, newsletter editing, community organizing, etc.
etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> 3. In a larger
sense, much of politics through<FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">out
history (including some military efforts) have been rationalized as
promoting what was for the time viewed as an improvement on the previous
system. For example, feudalism, as prone to tyrrany as at was, was
nevertheless believed to be an improvement of some degree of order and
predictability, better than what had been happening in the earlier "dark
ages" in which people felt far too vulnerable to robbers, invaders,
and pure barbarism. In other words:</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> 4. The problem with sociatry
is the problem with fascism: The doctor-patient model of the 1940s
(relating to the -iatros Greek root meaning physician) involved a wise
knower-how-to-diagnose and treat and a submissive patient. This does not
apply well to large social groupings. It is not at all clear that anyone
knows how to fix it all and can garner adequate consensus for "I'll just
tell you what to do and then you take this medicine and follow my
'orders.' type of management. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2
face=Arial> I'm just
noting that the word may be misleading. The spirit Moreno advocated is
something I share: Let's apply what we're learning in psychology,
sociology, and every other field to efforts in every
institution---political, educational, economic, clubs, recreation,
medicine, etc. I saw his idea as an interdisciplinary vision during an
era in which fields were more compartmentalized. Ed's advocacy of social
action has merit, but awaiting specifics, I'm not sure that our field
has more to offer than other fields. It certainly has some to offer,
though!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> 5. I'm continuing to do adult
education classes and weaving in principles from role theory, the idea
of externalization and personification of defenses (i.e., imagining that
they can be played, given voice, imagined to be little seductive
con-men, little Bernie Madoffs or whoever). , and other Morenian ideas
along with the contributions of others--- all part of the aforementioned
idea of "psychological literacy" or promoting the continued integration
of the insights of psychology in life.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2
face=Arial>
(In a larger sense, I think sociatry refers in large part to this
cultural trend towards bringing psychology into the mainstream of
culture rather than its having operated at the periphery as a
semi-irrelevant procedure for folks at the margins of
society)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><FONT size=2
face=Arial></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><FONT size=2 face=Arial> 6. Writing,
publishing, presenting at other conferences, and talking about how
psychodramatic and sociometric methods might have applications beyond
its own field... I think these are small but not meaningless efforts. A
measure of humility is okay. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> 7. Continuing efforts (and
modeling) in integrating good ideas from other fields will also help to
break down perceptions of psychodrama as somewhat insular. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> Those are a few things perhaps
that can advance the idea of our field's relevance to social activism.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2
face=Arial>
The targets include not only global warming (as Ed noted), but thousands
of other worthy causes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
Some of these, interestingly, are complex: The question regarding health
care for me, for example, is to what degree I support the present
kluged-together bill or exert myself for the cause of a single-payer
system (as supported by the Physicians for a National Health
Plan)? It could be argued that in the present climate, a
compromise is necessary and that single-payer has zero chance. On the
other hand, the present bill is so fraught with compromises that it will
be unsatisfactory in many ways, the problem will "heat up" further, and
more radical surgery will be frustrated because "we already tried
socialized medicine" (when in fact we only put our toe in the
water, so to speak). So political decision-making is a
problem in weighing which tactic to use in the interim. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
Warmly, Adam </FONT></DIV></DIV><BR>Grouptalk mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:List@grouptalkweb.org"
target=_blank>List@grouptalkweb.org</A><BR><A
href="http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org"
target=_blank>http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P></P>
<HR>
<P></P><BR>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
href="http://www.avg.com" target=_blank>www.avg.com</A> <BR>Version:
8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2294 - Release Date: 08/10/09
06:10:00<BR>
<P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P><BR>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG -
www.avg.com <BR>Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.50/2296 - Release
Date: 08/11/09 06:10:00<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>