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<DIV>That "lady from New Zealand" is Ali Undorf-Lay, a senior policy analyst
with the Federated Farmers of New Zealand and a recent Nuffield Scholar (like a
Rhodes Scholar, etc). She traveled the world twice last year visiting farmers
and farmer organizations, in India, Ireland, Turkey, Great Britain, Japan,
Switzerland, Canada, the US, China, etc. The question of sustainability is
a big issue for farmers. The tax structures alone are archaic. Most
countries tax according to land mass, whether it is in productive use or not.
The farmer throughout the US carries an unfair proportion of taxation based on
these old tax codes. They can't afford to farm anymore. The global
issues of food production (we DO have to eat something to stay alive, and the
world has a lot of hungry people in it) and the amount of land it takes to
operate a successful farm is a major world concern. The farmers are affected by
global warming as well.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What does it have to do with psychodrama and sociometry? These people
assemble in groups to discuss concerns. They have to be activists to
protect the land from encroaching development, recreation vehicles in the
paddock, etc. They need skills of engagement, and the ability to role reverse
and strategize. They have to use action methods for planning and active
encounters in conflicts that can become quite heated when the government wants
you to open your lands to tourists all year round, despite the growing season
and the disturbancs to livestock.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Psychodrama must be viewed as open for application wherever people assemble
and have the opportunity to engage in explorations of their concerns.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ali gave us wonderful examples of the application of Morenoean methods in
non-therapy settings. She should not be dismissed as "the lady from New
Zealand". She is worthy of her name being remembered.</DIV>
<DIV>Ann Hale</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ablatner@verizon.net href="mailto:ablatner@verizon.net">Adam
Blatner</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=ibanaco@gmail.com
href="mailto:ibanaco@gmail.com">Ivo Banaco</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=list@grouptalkweb.org
href="mailto:list@grouptalkweb.org">list@grouptalkweb.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 12, 2009 9:20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: sociatry ideas</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>okay, okay, sorrry. I think that lady from
New Zealand was offering some specific examples---though I didn't see how they
reflected specifically psychodramatic or morenian methods.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I do want to encourage
positive social action and the general ideal of sociatry is fine. I do think
the methods can play a role in the unfolding of an evolving culture. I'm
interested enough, as a matter of fact, to wonder what folks are actually
coming up with, and that motivated me to press in the opposite direction
(i.e., press for specifics). I realize that this may have been more
inhibiting to some than focusing. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> So I like the
let's have all the hats approach. Thanks Peter and Ivo and
Ed... warmly, adam</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ibanaco@gmail.com href="mailto:ibanaco@gmail.com">Ivo Banaco</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=adam@blatner.com
href="mailto:adam@blatner.com">Adam Blatner</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=peterhowie@macquariehouse.com.au
href="mailto:peterhowie@macquariehouse.com.au">Peter Howie</A> ; <A
title=list@grouptalkweb.org
href="mailto:list@grouptalkweb.org">list@grouptalkweb.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 12, 2009 6:26
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: sociatry ideas</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Hi Peter,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I love your blue wisdom hat. I resonate with your discerned words. I
certainly can see my flaws and insufficient explained arguments. If
using vigorously my black hat I wouldn't have written a single e-mail to the
group. If I would formed a team to think about problems and trying to come
out with some solutions I'd certainly want Adam to be there. But for the
sake of this particular context here at grouptalk I find Adam's iconoclast
attitude particularly unproductive, though it certainly help
me sharpening the arguments. Things like separating the whole
argument in parts and then pointing the flaws is like breaking a house and
saying that none of the parts are useful to make a shelter. Like
deconstructionism have shown is very easy to dismantle an argument to a
point where meaning is nothing and you can say one thing or another that is
all part of the same round circle. Combining a "<SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">rigorously rational approach" and a moving
forward it's a totally different and more demanding thing. For that we need
all the hats available...</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for Bono's reference Peter.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ivo</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 2:13 AM, Adam Blatner <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:ablatner@verizon.net">ablatner@verizon.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Peter, thanks for this. Yes, I like de
Bono's six thinking hats very much, and your analysis is good.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> There's another bit of
group process. Because of the relative lack of support---a few folks have
said online or back channeled that they agree with my more rigorously
rational approach---which comes across black hat--- but it occurs to me
that there's no need to say anything. If the group chooses to go with Ed's
style, that's okay with me. I can restrain myself. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
Warmly, Adam </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=peterhowie@macquariehouse.com.au
href="mailto:peterhowie@macquariehouse.com.au" target=_blank>Peter
Howie</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=list@grouptalkweb.org
href="mailto:list@grouptalkweb.org" target=_blank>grouptalk Listserv</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:32
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: sociatry ideas</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 16px Calibri; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate">
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: medium">Dear Adam and others,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: medium"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: medium">I have been having fun with Edward
de Bono's creativity ideas recently and at different times in the past.
I am not sure how influential he is in the US but in Australia he has
found a ready home. One of his ideas was the idea of the six thinking
hats - google away for any number of articles. It seems to me that some
of the discussion here can be looked at in a few ways. Role theory would
be one but requires more than we have produced here. So the six thinking
hats is an attenuated type of taxonomic role theory (that is defining
the roles not by what is seen and done but buy the purpose of the
actions). Given this I kind of get the sense that Adam you are often
taking the black hat approach or feeling the need for the black hat and
this leads you to socratically pick apart arguments, point our logical
flaws in many ways act something between a lawyer and an academic
marking a paper. Whereas others here, such as Ed could be seen as using
red hat thinking where they are passionately presenting their ideas,
wisdom and worries, sort of an enthusiastic Cassandra while Ivo is
working between yellow hat which is a logical and positive approach and
a green hat which is a creative, lateral type approach sort of like a
wild and refined scientist-philosopher. In writing this I am aware that
I could be seen to be using a blue hat approach which relates more to
group process. >From the blue hat perspective and working from the 6
thinking hats paradigm, I would recommend that folks respond from the
same hat for a while before changing hats. Try experimenting with
unfamiliar hats. I reckon Ed can critique his ideas as well as anyone
and Ivo can see the looseness of his ideas and Adam can't hide the
underlying positivity of his posts.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: medium"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: medium">de Bono conceived the purpose of
the 6 hats as furthering creativity in thinking. Perhaps here we are
trying to use argument to develop relationships which is always a
torturous path. Maybe better to develop relationships and then develop
the arguments?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: medium"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: medium">Cheers for the moment</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: medium"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: medium">Peter</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Peter Howie B.Sc, TEP
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Managing Director</DIV>
<DIV>The Moreno Collegium for Human Centred Learning, Research and
Development</DIV>
<DIV>0411 873 851</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.morenocollegium.com.au"
target=_blank>www.morenocollegium.com.au</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR></SPAN><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On 12/08/2009, at 8:19 AM, Adam Blatner wrote:</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: medium Calibri; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate">
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear Ivo, sorry, I find your effort at
being specific to be a weaving of more abstract ideals. For
example regarding your example: Specifically what would you imagine
anyone doing regarding the financial crisis? Is there any even
rationally proposed evidence that identifies one step in this that is
unequivocally affected by anything psychodramatic, sociometric,
etc.--- (Of course we can say, oh, if only politicians were more
deeply concerned about the plight of the people...)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> We must remember,
though, that many people in this catastrophe were greedy and
childishly gullible---both those who sold the mortgages and those who
bought them. Who are the innocent victims and what specifically (oh I
am so sorry for harping on this nasty word) do you suggest to remedy
the problem? Should those who were foolish and greedy be allowed so
suffer the consequences of their folly? If not, what else would you
propose?</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228)"><B>From:</B><SPAN> </SPAN><A
title=ibanaco@gmail.com href="mailto:ibanaco@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Ivo Banaco</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B><SPAN> </SPAN><A
title=adam@blatner.com href="mailto:adam@blatner.com"
target=_blank>Adam Blatner</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B><SPAN> </SPAN><A
title=list@grouptalkweb.org href="mailto:list@grouptalkweb.org"
target=_blank>list@grouptalkweb.org</A></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>Tuesday,
August 11, 2009 2:20 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>Re:
sociatry ideas</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Hi Adam and all,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I understand your concerns about the excessive abstraction. In
any given area in politics for example I could give you several
examples of how the tools generated by psychodrama, sociodrama and
for that matter all the so called "consciousness movement" could
help. The problem with the specifics is that they could easily loose
track of the more general concern of this group. Loosing the forest
for a tree is a risk that I don't want to take either. But OK, let's
go for it. I will give you a specific...:-)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The US economic crisis:</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Look to the unemployment numbers: about 15 million, a
historical number by any standard - 2 years ago unemployment was at
more or less 7 million people. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> ab
irrelevant</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Most of the money is being spent in the rebuilding of
the financial system and in some highly questionable economic
projects.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> Name which
ones are questionable; describe the consequences of refusing to do
this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>There are no tools given to politicians, to my knowledge, that
help them to look beyond the numbers. Why the financial system
broke? If we can see beyond we can look to the financial theatre,
the actors, the spontaneity (or the lack of it), the reactivity, the
lack of reason, the exuberance, the egoistic approach,
etc.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
remember greed and the willingness to cheat, to almost cheat, to
fudge the truth, to say you earn more than you do, to promise
unrealistically</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> but that's not my point. The
problem with spontaneity is that the Morenian definition begs the
question: an effective response to an old situation (is part of the
definition) -- but we don't know what will be in fact effective. So
the argument is circular. If the politicians had true spontaneity
they'd be automatically wise. And of course (saying this
sarcastically) we know how to teach them that. Right.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> </FONT> What
is being done? Simply is being delivered a lot of money to the
same guys with the same instruments to mess it up again.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> aB: I kind of agree
with you here and am not sure of the actual rationale. It does seem
foolish.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> IB </FONT> What
could be done? A fundamental intervention, one that can combine all
the good stuff that was created (that become possible, for example,
to spread the risk, turning some important assets like houses more
affordable to poor families - the so called subprime families,
etc) with what I would call the subjective and inter-subjective
interventions.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> AB: I
am totally bewildered by this---haven't the foggiest idea what
you're talking about!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> How spread the
risk? what does that mean? How does this deal with
anything Morenian?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
IB </FONT> Any important player in the market must have
skills beyond its obvious technical abilities.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Intersubjective skills, emotional intelligence and
so.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
name one and show how it would apply. Otherwise</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>They are wonderful and highly respected scientific literature
supporting this (like Howard Gardner multiple intelligences). But
this is a major and complex educational problem.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> This is the problem--- and
almost a cop-out; it's like saying if people could be
smart, we'd solve things. But it's not clear that smart people who
were psychologically minded would have any ideas that you don't
have. So I await more specifics.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Our societies gave over the years an increasingly value to
cognitive skills that yes, it's true, helped to
promote technological progress and material well being.
But today we all know that this is not enough and could be danger
not only to a particular nation but to the world at large. Society
as a whole must gave (urgently I would say) value to several
dimensions of the human being. Today an educated man and woman that
will go leading business, families, political affairs must
have a new sensibility and see things that others are blind to.
Psychodrama courses for example could be a priority education
project combined with the core training of a given person.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> ab: see point
above. You're implying that holistically enlightened people would be
more effective than non-holistically-psychologically enlightened
people. sounds plausible, but you haven't made the case that knowing
sociometry, psychodrama, or anything Moreno taught---which, though I
value it---I'm not yet willing to make serious claims for--- will be
proven to do a better job.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> as
you say, it's a complex problem...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> All psychological literacy (a wonderful term that I get
from you) is important to all leaders not in order to absolutize
that particular type of knowledge but to give it the place that is
deserved (this is particularly important, because to absolutize one
dimension of life is a big mistake and a very easy one to make).
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> <SPAN> </SPAN></FONT>A
"sociatric politician" would have that in the primordial agenda and
not just in footnotes don't you think? </DIV>
<DIV> AB: I can't disagree, because it's so general. You're
saying that a politician who is psychologically sensitive and aware
would do a better job. I would like to agree, but any scientific or
even simply rational person would require you to break the whole
idea down into very very specific competencies; test whether each
one is very or only slightly relevant to the goal task; and assess
how much knowing Morenian stuff makes a difference in policy
development. Lacking that tight, meticulous analysis,
you're free to make any claims you like and they can't be
disproven.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> IB In a tomorrow's world a
economic crisis would not be compensate with 7 new million
job loss. We would easily know the tremendous impact at
all subjective and intersubjective levels in a family or in a person
(emotional, financial, and all the imbalances caused by the
situation).</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
AB: Is subjective and intersubjective the latest in psychobabble
terms? What about bio-psycho-social, or is that too
outdated?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Who is the we, how would we know
it, the impact at all subjective levels-- can we know the impact of
ANYTHING at ALL subjective levels? We as outsiders or as the person
feeling it? etc. And who would the people be
who are intersubjectively interacting,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> A business leader would try to reformulate their business
with their human resources in a different way.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> ab: name one
specific example</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> People would not be just a number.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> That implies
that all managers or politicians (not most but all) are treating
people only as numbers. An easy claim, but not if you interview them
or look at the situation closely.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> Things would be
worked out differently.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> This is
the kind of argument that says in effect that if people would be
smarter, they'd be better, and then everything would be better. It's
unprovable and I can't imagine one specific example of what you're
talking about.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> This is the point of
concretization, of setting a scene in psychodrama. Clients in talk
therapy tend to talk this way, generalities. We need to cut through
abstractions and find out what the actual situation is. If I can't
imagine a concrete example I really don't know what you're talking
about and it is possible that in believing your own abstractions
you're weaving a web of self-delusion that works for you, satisfies
your feelings of coherence. Lots of folks live this way----believing
in the web or network of loosely assembled platitudes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> <SPAN> </SPAN></FONT>For
example with the natural and frequent use of psychodrama and
sociodrama tools other reality surplus would come out,
creativity would be raised and solutions be found. Creativity is not
just faith or utopia or wishful thinking. It's an endogenous power
of the human being that have to be recognize. </DIV>
<DIV>
AB: well, sure. That's kind of my point: I think that as
psychological literacy in general penetrates the culture that there
may be a development of mental flexibility and the foundations of
more consciousness can be built on this---but it would require a
thousand other components---political, technical, economic,
etc.---also part of the growing infrastructure--- and it will likely
take generations if not centuries.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
IB <SPAN> </SPAN></FONT>This is just some quick and
not worked thoughts about specific applications in business,
leadership, social values and above all education. This is just not
just about being aware that psychology and consciousness are
important matters to social life. This is about how to integrate in
the social activities all the good knowledge that We are being
finding without loosing all the good practices that part of what we
do already.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> aB: The
question is whether staying at the level of affirming ideals is a
lot more effective than the obviously more illusory song verse
below.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>IB The challenges of the integration of the new to a well
stablish cultural conserve it's the challenge of life
itself, I believe. Some of you guys in grouptalk should have an
important voice in political decision making in this
crisis. AB: What do you mean "should"? Which ones
of us?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>IB Have Obama called you to ask an opinion? Do you care
at all or just keep just wondering like in the Dave Mathews's
song: </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(101,101,101); LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"Tell
me everything will be OK if I just stay on my knees and keep
praying believing in
something </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(101,101,101); LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Tell
me everything is all taken care of by those qualified to take care
of it all." </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> AB: I'm
reminded of the anecdote of JLM doing one of his first Theatre of
Spontaneity, inviting the audience members to come up and be king,
and help the chaotic and struggling remnants of the Austro-Hungarian
Empire to find a way to accommodate to the changes and realities of
the post WWI
world. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> If Obama called me
and asked my opinion, I'd have a few things to say, but they'd be
pretty obvious and easily arguable. Nor am I sure that I'm
ultimately "right" or smarter than him. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>All the best, Ivo ab:
enough. talk to you later.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>PS: About the word Sociatry. What I find is
that<SPAN> </SPAN><B><I><SPAN
style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline">iatros</SPAN></I></B>, is indeed
a physician but iatry comes from<B><I><SPAN
style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"><SPAN> </SPAN>iatreia</SPAN></I></B><SPAN> </SPAN>and
that is not the healer is the heal itself...and if it is true (and
I'm not a specialist) will make all the difference...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Adam
Blatner<SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:ablatner@verizon.net"
target=_blank>ablatner@verizon.net</A>></SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN>wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear Ivo and all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
1. </FONT>August 10, IB: Right Adam, but feeling that your
point 4 misleading. In WSS Moreno finds the root of Sociatry in
WSS in Socius - the other fellow and iatreia -
healing; </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> AB: sorry
for the pedantry but I looked it up: Iatros is
physician from iasthai ancient greek
for heal... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> socius
Latin companion </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> 2. IB All of Moreno's ideas tried to fight
the doctor-patient model, and I don't think that
sociatry relate to that at all, although I can see your
point.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> AB:
Startling statement, unclear how that seems so for you. There's a
little bit of truth re his wanting less authoritative group
psychotherapy, but his behavior at his sanatarium was quite in
keeping with the doctor-patient model.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
3. IB</FONT> But I admit this is a matter of taste, like
your dislike about tele.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> AB: Please don't give people
the impression that I dislike tele, but rather think that while
the dynamic is of central importance in a more holistic
psychology, the term perhaps might be better understood by
non-psychodramatists if called something else, such as
rapport.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> 4.
IB </FONT> For me Sociatry calls for a higher level of
intervention in society, a inter/ trans
disciplinary approach to the socius with a fundamental
emphasis to treat it. Quoting Moreno. "The art and skill of the
sociatrist will depend upon a synthesis of knowledge toward which
all social and psychiatric sciences will have made their
contribution." And that doesn't exist yet as such, but we have all
the ingredients...we have to cook them!<SPAN> </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN> AB:
Fine, when you've cooked up something specific let us
know.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN> 5 IB Of course we can always
question: If that is so what is the difference between
sociatry and politics. It should be none but it is not the case at
this moment. What sociatry could bring to politics is a type
of knowledge (e.g. sociometry, group dynamics, all the invisible
structures, cultural bias, etc,) that seems to escape most of
politicians today. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN> AB: Sure, it's nice to
imagine that our political leaders could know all sorts of things
and that this would help, but can you give a single example of how
a political leader would act differently, think differently,
knowing the above? I'm not saying they wouldn't, but integrating
knowledge and ranking its relevance is a problem.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>
More, it is unrealistic to just dump all we know into an expert's
lap and expect the expert to know how to pick out what is more or
less relevant. (It's surprising how many less-experienced
psychotherapists or psychiatrists will present a case by dumping
out information in such a way as to demonstrate they they haven't
begun to sort out what is more or less important---see my paper on
my website on the art of case presentation.)</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN> </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>
6.<SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>In the future Sociatry could
well be the real political action.. why not as sociatry could not
exist as such (if it aims a large scale social intervention)
without politics? AB: The problem is giving more specifics,
more definition: One could also say "Makingbetter" will be the
real sociatry, which would also be the real political
action.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial size=2> Perhaps this quibbling
about terms is unnecessary. I certainly want to support
enthusiasm, and the belief that our field has important tools to
introduce into the mainline of the culture. I have put this idea
into many of my writings.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
But an excess of abstraction just might evoke a counter-reaction,
the appellation of "psychobabble," or some such, so I occasionally
comment on this.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial
size=2> <SPAN> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN>Best,
Ivo AB And good wishes to you...</DIV>
<DIV> <SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'">"The term
derives from a Latin and Greek root, the one is socius, the “other
fellow”, the other iatreia, healing." see
above...<SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN><BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Adam
Blatner<SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:ablatner@verizon.net"
target=_blank>ablatner@verizon.net</A>></SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN>wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Okay, let's see. The world is in
trouble in thousands of different ways at many levels. What
can "sociatry" do? Which methods are useful with groups beyond
the sick role? (i.e., beyond psychotherapy).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> 1.
Starting small: Consider the feminist notion that the personal
is political and reverse it. In the 1970s the institution of
the happy nuclear family was questioned. Might it for some be
a prison? Questioning social arrangements is one
example. Could therapy include social action? Groups whose
task is to change more than the consciousness of its own
members generate new types of group dynamics,
concerning as how best to accomplish its chosen
tasks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> 2.
Recognize that sociometry and psychodramatic methods
constitute at most only 23.2% of the many different kinds
of skills and knowledge involved in social
action. Things like composing an effective letter,
lobbying, etc. --- there are hundreds or thousands of such
components that transcend any particular
discipline--- including the skill bases of rhetoric,
advertising, spin-doctoring, propaganda, all the elements of
politics, lobbying, newsletter editing, community organizing,
etc. etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> 3. In a
larger sense, much of politics through<FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>out history (including some
military efforts) have been rationalized as promoting what was
for the time viewed as an improvement on the previous system.
For example, feudalism, as prone to tyrrany as at was, was
nevertheless believed to be an improvement of some degree of
order and predictability, better than what had been happening
in the earlier "dark ages" in which people felt far
too vulnerable to robbers, invaders, and pure
barbarism. In other words:</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> 4. The problem with
sociatry is the problem with fascism: The doctor-patient model
of the 1940s (relating to the -iatros Greek root meaning
physician) involved a wise knower-how-to-diagnose and treat
and a submissive patient. This does not apply well to large
social groupings. It is not at all clear that anyone knows how
to fix it all and can garner adequate consensus for "I'll just
tell you what to do and then you take this medicine and follow
my 'orders.' type of management.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> I'm
just noting that the word may be misleading. The spirit Moreno
advocated is something I share: Let's apply what we're
learning in psychology, sociology, and every other field to
efforts in every institution---political, educational,
economic, clubs, recreation, medicine, etc. I saw his idea as
an interdisciplinary vision during an era in which fields were
more compartmentalized. Ed's advocacy of social action has
merit, but awaiting specifics, I'm not sure that our field has
more to offer than other fields. It certainly has some to
offer, though!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> 5. I'm continuing to
do adult education classes and weaving in principles from role
theory, the idea of externalization and personification of
defenses (i.e., imagining that they can be played, given
voice, imagined to be little seductive con-men, little Bernie
Madoffs or whoever). , and other Morenian ideas along with the
contributions of others--- all part of the aforementioned idea
of "psychological literacy" or promoting the continued
integration of the insights of psychology in
life.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
(In a larger sense, I think sociatry refers in large part to
this cultural trend towards bringing psychology into the
mainstream of culture rather than
its having operated at the periphery as a
semi-irrelevant procedure for folks at the margins of
society)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial size=2> 6.
Writing, publishing, presenting at other conferences, and
talking about how psychodramatic and sociometric methods might
have applications beyond its own field... I think these are
small but not meaningless efforts. A measure of humility is
okay.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> 7. Continuing
efforts (and modeling) in integrating good ideas from other
fields will also help to break down perceptions of psychodrama
as somewhat insular.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Those are a few
things perhaps that can advance the idea of our field's
relevance to social activism.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
The targets include not only global warming (as Ed noted), but
thousands of other worthy causes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> Some of
these, interestingly, are complex: The question regarding
health care for me, for example, is to what degree I support
the present kluged-together bill or exert myself for the cause
of a single-payer system (as supported by the Physicians for a
National Health Plan)? It could be argued that in the
present climate, a compromise is necessary and that
single-payer has zero chance. On the other hand, the present
bill is so fraught with compromises that it will be
unsatisfactory in many ways, the problem will "heat up"
further, and more radical surgery will be frustrated because
"we already tried socialized medicine" (when in fact we
only put our toe in the water, so to speak). So
political decision-making is a problem in weighing which
tactic to use in the interim.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> Warmly,
Adam</FONT></DIV></DIV><BR>Grouptalk mailing list<BR><A
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