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Thank you Karen. One of the reasons that I call my work either experiential psychotherapy or clinically modified psychodrama is to address these concerns in the general public. Also being a Ph.D clinical psychologist gets me around some of the naysayers as well. <div><br></div><div>there is MUCH research on experiential psychotherapy, much of it done by a clinical psychologist at York University in Toronto that we can tie psychodrama into to support our work. His name is Leslie Greenberg and all psychodramatists can do that for their work. </div><div><br></div><div>kate<br><div><div>On Nov 9, 2009, at 2:21 PM, Karen Carnabucci wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="country-region"> <o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PostalCode"> <o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="State"> <o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"> <o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="Street"> <o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="address"> <o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PlaceName"> <o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PlaceType"> <o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"> <o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName"> <!--[if !mso]> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Helvetica; panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} p.MsoAutoSig, li.MsoAutoSig, div.MsoAutoSig {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.EmailStyle19 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:black; font-weight:normal; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none none;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> <div class="Section1"><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">How good that documentation and studies are </span></font>now being available and <font color="black"><span style="color:black">able to demonstrate this information. Of course,</span></font> there are some<font color="black"><span style="color:black"> psychodrama directors, as skilled</span></font> and as creative<font color="black"><span style="color:black"> as they are, are not knowledgeable about the most recent updates and research on trauma</span></font> and how they link with action and experiential methods<font color="black"><span style="color:black">.</span></font> This is why I have found Kate’s Therapeutic Spiral Model so valuable, along with other practitioners’ contributions including Donna Little and others.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">I now integrate Kate’s model with other bits, including bilateral stimulation and Systemic Constellation Work and refer to Reiki, bodywork, yoga and/or acupuncture when appropriate. One of my early trainers, Gerald Tremblay, always announced, when talking about trauma, “Go slow, like a turtle.”<font color="black"><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Dr. Van Der Kolk says that experiential methods are the treatment of choice for trauma survivors. And we should add -- when anchored in clinical theory and employed by a competent and well-trained practitioners, </span></font>who are trained well <font color="black"><span style="color:black">not only in psychodrama but informed about the updated research and sensitive to the nuances of trauma. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Kate, please count me in your corner as a supporter!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div><p class="MsoAutoSig"><b><font size="2" color="#003366" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#003366;font-weight:bold">Karen Carnabucci, MSS, LCSW, TEP<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><b><font size="3" color="#003366" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#003366;font-weight:bold"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></b></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placetype w:st="on"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black">Lake</span></font></st1:placetype><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"> <st1:placename w:st="on">House</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">Health & Learning</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">Center</st1:placetype></span></font></st1:place><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><st1:street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black">932 Lake Ave.</span></font></st1:address></st1:street><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black">Racine</span></font></st1:city><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">, <st1:state w:st="on">WI</st1:state> <st1:postalcode w:st="on">53403</st1:postalcode></span></font></st1:place><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">(262) 633-2645<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><st1:personname w:st="on"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"><a href="mailto:karenc@wi.rr.com">karenc@wi.rr.com</a></span></font></st1:personname><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">Web: <a href="http://www.lakehousecenter.com">http://www.lakehousecenter.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">Wellness blog: <a href="http://lakehouseracine.blogspot.com">http://lakehouseracine.blogspot.com</a></span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">Coaching blog: <a href="http://wholepersonmarketing.blogspot.com">http://wholepersonmarketing.blogspot.com</a></span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">Facebook: <a href="http://www.facebook.com/lakehousecenter">http://www.facebook.com/lakehousecenter</a></span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">Twitter: <a href="http://www.twitter.com/karencarnabucci">http://www.twitter.com/karencarnabucci</a></span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoAutoSig"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> <hr size="2" width="100%" align="center" tabindex="-1"> </span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> list-bounces@grouptalkweb.org [<a href="mailto:list-bounces@grouptalkweb.org">mailto:list-bounces@grouptalkweb.org</a>] <b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Dr Kate Hudgins<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Monday, November 09, 2009 12:53 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Edward Schreiber<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> ASGPP grouptalknew<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: Trauma, van der Kolk and psychodrama</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">Yes I know why he says this. He was the keynote speaker at ASGPP in 1996 and had a very bad experience there seeing uncontained abreactive psychodramas done again and again at the conference. I had lunch with him at the conference and told him about the Containing double and TSM. He told me it sounded good and could set psychodrama" back on the right path" but that I needed to do research on it. We have had several letters of correspondence over the past 13 years but they have been few and far in between. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"> I have since done several research studies that show it does contain the uncontrolled nature of abreactive trauma as it also DEFINES spontaneity.. there is now a 3 year study in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Taiwan</st1:place></st1:country-region> by Dr Lai Nien Hwa supported by government funding showing that a program using TSM and art therapy worked with woman and children effected by domestic violence who have PTSD works. It is being published in a the the Journel of Counseling in Chinese and in my new book Stories at the Frontlines: Clinical and Community Actions in the Global Community using The Therapeutic Spiral Model (In Press)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">I am willing to try and talk to Bessel but I am not willing to do it alone. Iwould do it as a representative of the ASGPP, as a representative of the psychodrama community. He at least knows who I am and knows my name. But I am very busy right now, writing a TSM Basic training manual with Nien Hwa Lai and two other colleagues in Chinese for <st1:country-region w:st="on">taiwan</st1:country-region>, a chapter for using tSM cross culturally, as well as trying to re-establish a <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region> training group and working with Colleen Baratka to continue our quarterly eating disorders group that goes between <st1:city w:st="on">Charlottesville</st1:city> and <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Philadelphia</st1:place></st1:city>. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">As many of you know I have not been part of the American psychodrama community for 10 years while I concentrated my work in <st1:place w:st="on">Asia</st1:place>. I have pulled back from working in China due to many bad experiences there but am expanding work in Japan and solidifying work in Taiwan as I also return to the UK and continue work in Canada as I rebuid my work in America. So, if I am to approach Bessel, I want support to do it. I do have research to show him of the Containing double in individual therapy, at the commmunity level, and this work of Dr Lai's in a year long therapy group. As you know I won the Scholar's award this year. So I think I can begin a dialogue with him.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">Who will support me?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">Kate<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">On Nov 8, 2009, at 8:01 PM, Edward Schreiber wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"><br> <br> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">Dear Colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">I had dinner tonight with a psychologist out here in <st1:place w:st="on">Western Mass.</st1:place><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>She is in private practice, but worked in a clinic serving traumatized kids<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">and families for many years.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>In any case, she was concerned about a conference she recently attended in the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Hartford</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">CT</st1:state></st1:place> area, in which<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">Dr. Van der Kolk as the keynote speaker.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Interestingly enough, he mentioned yoga and "theater" as helpful in the resolution of trauma.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>This<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">colleague has known of our method for some time so she raised in front of 300 people the question to him, about the work of J.L. Moreno and<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">psychodrama.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>This conference was a few months ago.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Dr. Van der Kolk resolutely announced psychodrama as counter-indicated for the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">treatment of trauma, suggesting abreactive nature of the method, as he experienced it some time ago, makes the situation worse for traumatized<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">patients.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div style="min-height: 14px"><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">Does anyone know how to reach him, what we might do to address this with him?<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Does anyone have a connection with him and why might he<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">be saying this - around the country - about psychodrama?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div style="min-height: 14px"><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">Ed<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div style="min-height: 14px"><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">Grouptalk mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"><a href="mailto:List@grouptalkweb.org">List@grouptalkweb.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"><a href="http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org">http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div><span style="border-spacing: 0px 0px;text-align:auto;-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto;orphans: 2;widows: 2;word-spacing:0px"> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Kate Hudgins, Ph.D., TEP<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Clinical Psychologist<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Director of Training<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Therapeutic Spiral International, LLC<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">ww.therapeuticspiral.org<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><a href="mailto:drkatetsi@mac.com">drkatetsi@mac.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br> <br> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </span></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> </div> </o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Grouptalk mailing list</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="mailto:List@grouptalkweb.org">List@grouptalkweb.org</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org">http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org</a></div> </blockquote></div><br><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div>Kate Hudgins, Ph.D., TEP</div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div>Clinical Psychologist</div><div>Director of Training</div><div>Therapeutic Spiral International, LLC</div><div>ww.therapeuticspiral.org</div><div><a href="mailto:drkatetsi@mac.com">drkatetsi@mac.com</a></div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span> </div><br></div></body></html>