<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><br><br><div dir="ltr">Kate Hudgins, Ph,D, TEP<div>Therapeutic Spiral International</div><div>www.therapeuticspiralmodel.com</div><div><br></div><div>Sent from my iPhone</div></div><div dir="ltr"><br>Begin forwarded message:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><b>From:</b> "M.K. Hudgins" <drkatetsi@icloud.com><br><b>Date:</b> October 1, 2021 at 7:23:45 AM EDT<br><b>To:</b> edwschreiber@earthlink.net<br><b>Cc:</b> cartmel@alphalink.com.au, list@grouptalkweb.org<br><b>Subject:</b> <b>Re:</b><br><br></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span>Dear Brendan </span><br><span></span><br><span>Thanks for sharing more. It is good to see the whole from many different ways and w different inputs equally valuable. Moreno wasn’t very good as seeing others as contributors I don’t think. His own god complex that he created all. </span><br><span></span><br><span>What I have done with the question where does spontaneity come from is to use role theory n my clinical hat to create the trauma survivors internal role atom in a 3 stage model. </span><br><span></span><br><span>In stage one of scene one of any TSM drama we prescribe roles that are needed n when enacted create a state of spontaneity where the person is in a stable state so they can they face their trauma safely. </span><br><span></span><br><span>There are 8 prescriptive roles… a witness role, the TSM Body n Containing doubles, 3 types of strengths n a manager of defenses. </span><br><span></span><br><span>When you find the right set of roles enacted n em livened anyone can find their state of spontaneity to make new n creative decisions. </span><br><span>While I personally follow the Godhead as originally proposed by Mario… we have found a way to concretize spontaneity… regardless of where it actually comes from. </span><br><span></span><br><span>As Moreno said…. The self emerges from the roles we play. Teaching people the skills to stay in the present with resources through prescriptive roles is a clinical path to guide all Psychodrama’s n many people now enroll strengths whereas that surely was not the case when TSM first developed 1992-1995. </span><br><span></span><br><span>Nice to have some interesting talk on Grouptalk. </span><br><span></span><br><span>Thanks Ed for getting it started. </span><br><span></span><br><span>Kate </span><br><span></span><br><span>Kate Hudgins, Ph,D, TEP</span><br><span>Therapeutic Spiral International</span><br><span>www.therapeuticspiralmodel.com</span><br><span></span><br><span>Sent from my iPhone</span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span>On Sep 30, 2021, at 9:31 PM, edwschreiber@earthlink.net wrote:</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>The Godhead. The First Universe is the source of the spark we find.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>-----Original Message-----</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>From: </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Sent: Sep 30, 2021 9:10 PM</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>To: </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Subject: undefined</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Hi Kate,</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Well spotted. 'Where does spontaneity come from?', is a key question for spontaneity-ists.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Conventionally there are 4 answers.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Answer 1) Is the answer of positivist-behaviorists. They [Parsons] contend it comes from the act of the</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>actor. The Director-Producers instruction is, 'Do - Don't Think. Do'.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>And lo and behold a spontaneous act occurs. The problem with this impetuosity is the actor has to learn to</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>live with the consequences of their act. Not always easy especially if the actor has a strong fight drive \</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>impulse. It tends to look like a mob invading Capital-Hill and asking from inside the building, 'now what do</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>we do?'</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Answer 2) is, 'spontaneity comes from the aboriginal onto-genetic Role developing within the actor'. This</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>is the most common answer provided [taught] by IAGP as far as I can see. It seems to be Edward's</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>answer as he seems to assume we each are conceived with a 'spontaneous atom' within us. This atom has</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>quantum [sub-atomic] characteristics. Each atom then [re-] acts with other atoms to pattern the global</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>social system as conglomerations of atoms. The problem with this theory is it is not very good at</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>explaining intelligence other than a function of the 'individual creative genius [atom]'. The obvious question</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>arises, 'what happens when you get 3 genius in the one room'. How can their individual genius intelligence</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>be a collective? The Christian answer of course is The Trinity; three in one. But that is a bit abstract and</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>overly symbolic for earthly actors. Its hard to see Trump and Putin and Xi admitting their intelligence is of</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>their collectivity.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Answer 3) is provided by Vygotsky who says the child fills [or at least tries to fill] the spontaneity gap</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>between the two parents. Vygotsky spontaneity is thus conceived of a dynamic collective 3-way social</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>intelligence. This seems to be a good resolution to the atomists' [individualists'] problems. Intelligence</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>then becomes the lack of spontaneity between Trump and Putin and Xi when they are in the same room. It</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>is of course a tragedy Moreno went to USA and not to Moscow where Jacob and Lev could have shared</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>their ideas. JLM was needed in 2 places at once.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Answer 4) is from Roy Bhaskar who posits that spontaneity comes from pure 'absence'. It is not so much</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>that the child sees the gap between the parents intelligence \ spontaneity but that the parents know the</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>gap is 'empty' in the sense that the gap can be filled with any 'potential'. Vygotsky of course focused on</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>language such that the child fills in the words absent between the 2 parents. Bhaskar posits it is not only</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>language that provides potentiality. Bhaskar's spontaneity can be pre-languaged such that it includes our</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>non-verbal dreams and our hands [bodies] groping when our eyes and ears are closed. Bhaskar says</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>answers 1-3 fall foul of the Epistemic Fallacy; which is to say the spontaneity they espouse assumes or</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>anticipates certain forms. In respect to Moreno's quote, ' new response to an old situation or an adequate</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>response to a new situation', the epistemic fallacy is enacted when the Director and Protagonist both have</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>conserved ideas for what; 'new' and 'old' and 'adequate' actually mean when each of these are really only</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>potentials which can mean any number of 'things' and things not fully able to be 'anticipated' \ enacted.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Bhaskar's notion of 'Absence' makes framing practice [especially therapy] very difficult so in some ways</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>the project is in a quagmire if not stalled. Some claim it is bedeviled by a form of utopianism. DCR</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>prompts theory building rather than 'solutions'.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Hope this inspires an Answer 5) or at least unpacks the dialectic some more.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Best Til Next</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Brendan</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>-----Original Message-----</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>From: M.K. Hudgins</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Sent: Thursday, 30 September 2021 8:48 PM</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>To: edwschreiber@earthlink.net</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Cc: cartmel@alphalink.com.au; list@grouptalkweb.org</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Subject: Re: Psychodrama as Education for Life</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Its interesting to see this dialectic.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>For me WSS is directly in the book only the spontaneous shall survive. His definition was behavioral in</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>many ways when he defined spontaneity as a new response to an old situation or an adequate response to</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>a new situation.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Where the larger conversation you are all having is about where does spontaneity come from?</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Thanks. Kate</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Kate Hudgins, Ph,D, TEP</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Therapeutic Spiral International</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>www.therapeuticspiralmodel.com</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Grouptalk mailing list</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>List@grouptalkweb.org</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Grouptalk mailing list</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>List@grouptalkweb.org</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org</span><br></blockquote></div></blockquote></body></html>